Dawn Caste Anima Ability

[Darkon]

Two questions


1.  On pg 119 of the Exalted core book, it states "Mortal creatures attemping to face the Exalted must make Valor checks or be unable to look directly at the character or strongly oppose him, subtracting 2 dice from all attempts to attack the character."


Great, so what's the difficulty?  If it doesn't state what the difficulty is, does that mean that the difficulty is 1?  Or is it equal to the Dawn caste's permanent Essence or Valor?  If the difficulty is merely 1, that seems pretty weak to me.


2.  Assuming I'm correct, and the difficulty is 1, that seems weak in light of the other castes anima abilities.  Is there anyone here that has altered the Dawn caste anima ability to bring them up to par with the others?


Thanks

 

[Flagg]

Great' date=' so what's the difficulty?  If it doesn't state what the difficulty is, does that mean that the difficulty is 1?[/quote']
Yes.

Is there anyone here that has altered the Dawn caste anima ability to bring them up to par with the others?

In my games, the difficulty is the Dawn's Essence, because otherwise, yes, it does suck.


-S

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

In my games, the difficulty is the Dawn's Essence, because otherwise, yes, it does suck.

Agreed.

 

[Joseph]

All Solar Anima Abilities suck, Dawn Caste has no monopoly in that regard.  I'd take the Terrestrial Aspect Powers over the Solar Caste Powers any day.  The same goes for the Lunar Caste Powers and the Sidereal Caste Powers.

 

[Persell]

We'll in my opinion a 1 suxx roll isn't unfair.  Think about it, characters/NPCs with valor 2 probably only have a 65% chance of succeding (this number is pure estimate) and I have failed many rolls of standard diff with 3 dice.  I wouldn't say its worth 5 motes against major fights, but in combat vs. extras and common warriors, it could be useful.

 

[Joseph]

We'll in my opinion a 1 suxx roll isn't unfair.  Think about it' date=' characters/NPCs with valor 2 probably only have a 65% chance of succeding (this number is pure estimate) and I have failed many rolls of standard diff with 3 dice.  I wouldn't say its worth 5 motes against major fights, but in combat vs. extras and common warriors, it could be useful.[/quote']
51% chance of succeeding.

 

[Darkon]

All Solar Anima Abilities suck, Dawn Caste has no monopoly in that regard.  I'd take the Terrestrial Aspect Powers over the Solar Caste Powers any day.  The same goes for the Lunar Caste Powers and the Sidereal Caste Powers.

I don't know about the Sidereals and Dragon Blooded, but the No Moons and the Changing Moons seem to me to have very useful caste abilities indeed.  Full Moons, not so much.


The Eclipse in our group has made great use of his anima abilities.  Both purchasing outside Solar charms, and getting people to commit oaths to him.  The Zenith has tried to use his anima ability, but at Essence 3, that Agg damage almost never happens, and if it does, it's only 1 or 2 health levels.  The Night, well, I've had to houserule that the anima ability that increases the difficulty of finding the Exalt is equal to half the Night's permanent Essence rounded down.  After all, the Zenith and the Twilight each have an anima ability that is based off their permanent Essence score.  The Twilight's anima ability has been impared somewhat by the addition of Power Combat.  No more anima abiliting away that one dice of damage.  Now it's not uncommon to have that opponent rolling min Essence of 3 or 4 dice.  It seemed like the Dawn were the worst out of the whole lot.


Thanks everyone for posting so far.


Joseph, do you make changes to the Solar anima abilities?  I've been using Still's method myself in my games w/out letting the players actually know.

 

[Andrew02]

 I wouldn't say its worth 5 motes against major fights' date=' but in combat vs. extras and common warriors, it could be useful.[/quote']
I thought it was 10 motes. Or did it get errata'd down in cost?

It seemed like the Dawn were the worst out of the whole lot.

I'd say so, too. Plus, Presence charms do a better job (though they have more cost).

 

[Joseph]

I don't know about the Sidereals and Dragon Blooded' date=' but the No Moons and the Changing Moons seem to me to have very useful caste abilities indeed.  Full Moons, not so much. [/quote']
Full Moon Anima Power is more useful in most fights than any Solar Anima Power, assuming your group actually meticulously keeps track of movement allowances.  Lunars all ready tend to have large movement rates due to high Dexterity, and doubling those rates has quite an effect, allowing at times a Lunar to maneuver in, strike, and maneuver out without being able to be struck.

The Eclipse in our group has made great use of his anima abilities.  Both purchasing outside Solar charms' date=' and getting people to commit oaths to him.  [/quote']
1) The Oath power is meaningless.  The Storyteller has complete control over when NPCs will swear oaths, and complete control over when the botches occur; it's a plot device, not a power.  


2) There is no situation in which it is beneficial for a Solar Exalt to purchase Charms outside of his Exalt type.  The Solar is always better off creating Custom Charms that create similar effects, which they almost always can.  The double XP cost and double activation cost of outside Charms makes the ability ridiculous.

The Zenith has tried to use his anima ability' date=' but at Essence 3, that Agg damage almost never happens, and if it does, it's only 1 or 2 health levels.  [/quote']
And even then generally only on meaningless things like Zombie Extras, as the things you might really want to use it on -- like an Abyssal Exalt -- can cancel it out as per Book of Bone and Ebony's expanded rules.

The Night' date=' well, I've had to houserule that the anima ability that increases the difficulty of finding the Exalt is equal to half the Night's permanent Essence rounded down.  After all, the Zenith and the Twilight each have an anima ability that is based off their permanent Essence score.  [/quote']
This is a reasonable house rule.  It's worth noting that the SECONDARY anima power of the Night Caste (paying double to avoid anima contribution) is actually not bad, it just makes more sense if it were an Eclipse power as well, because social Charms setting off your anima flare tends to fuck things up.

Joseph, do you make changes to the Solar anima abilities?  I've been using Still's method myself in my games w/out letting the players actually know.

In my games, Dawn Castes using their power add 2 dice to all they lead into battle, rather than the lame intimidation thing.  I find it much more reasonable, and much more true to their "inspiring leader" motif.


Night Caste Anima I reduced to 5 motes, like the Abyssal equivalent.


Zenith I left as is, as they have three fairly weak ones that combine into something sort of alright.


Eclipse I leave as is, even though I think it's rubbish; I'm too lazy to come up with a good alternative, given players seem to not mind their power being mere plot device.


Twilights I'm going to change eventually, but I still haven't come up with something to my satisfaction.  The damage reduction power is totally out of place for them, period.  You can say "Oh, but it helps them while they are casting..." but there's nothing about it that is specific to casting or their role.  It's damage mitigation, nothing else.  I may give them something like being able to cast a single Spell in advance and store it within their anima banner, being able to release it reflexively anytime their anima is showing (it would need to be recast and restored to be used again in this fashion).

 

[Athrun the Bear]

Damn...Joseph beat me to it.  Well, as for the Lunar anima abilities their usefulness depends more on the skill of the player than just being universally usefull.  Still, they are really nice.


The Changing Moon power is usefull if your "real" face is known in a town and you'd like to slip in, do some business, and then slip out unrecognized.  It's also fun (as an NPC) to confuse the hell out of PCs.  And, you know, that whole "friend of a friend" thing is more usefull when you actually look like your friend.  Instead of some random guy who knows person X showing up at person Y's door, you can look like person X.  Also nice if you have a falling out with someone...just do some illegal stuff while you look like them and get them in trouble with the law.  Loads of fun for the whole pack.  


The No Moon ability IS great...if you plan on casting a lot of spells in one scene.  You can pay 14 motes and then cast Death of Obsidian Butterflies for 1 mote and 1 Willpower...then cast it again for 1 mote and 1 willpower...then cast Stormwind Rider  for 1 mote and 1 Willpower...then cast Magma Kraken for (cost of MK - 14) motes and 2 Willpower.  Get's sort of ludicrous after a while.  Outside of such a (multi-spell) situation, though, it's not horribly useful.  


The Full Moon anima abillity is actually a lot of fun.  I know a lot of Solar players who love Leaping Dodge Method.  When the Lunar can move 40 yards per turn, jumping 8 yards away just isn't so effective.  Also, as Joseph said, by running in and out of range, a Lunar can render himself quite hard to hit.  Jumping ungodly distances without ever activating a charm is a lot of fun too.


Tons of other uses for any of these if you know what your doing.  Actually, as a Solar, I'm not sure I've ever activated my anima abillity.  I do it all the time when playing as a Lunar or DB...Abyssal sometimes...but not Solar.


Edit:  Just a quick change to the Willpower cost of Magma Kraken...originally stated it as 1 Willpower (forgetting that it was of the Celestial Circle).

 

[memesis]

Dawn Caste anima power + ruling that the Valor roll is once per turn rather than once ever + hordes of mortals = room-sweeper.  It's not a total takedown, but it's not supposed to be.  It DOES make a useful tool in some circumstances.


It can be used to:


* start riots.  unspecified fear spreads like fire.


* defend against such monsters as the River Dragon and Tyrant Lizard (both of whom are "normal animals", albeit really big and scary ones).


* throw a charging cavalry unit into total disarray.  horses must be trained not to spook around loud noises, fire, and so forth - don't tell me your trained warhorses were put through anti-supernatural-fear training too.

 

[Persell]

2) There is no situation in which it is beneficial for a Solar Exalt to purchase Charms outside of his Exalt type.  The Solar is always better off creating Custom Charms that create similar effects, which they almost always can.  The double XP cost and double activation cost of outside Charms makes the ability ridiculous.

I have to disagree. A few spirit charms are really worth their while. Learning Dematerialize from a weak elemental (weak elementals meaning less Essence meaning lesser Essence cost) is pretty powerful. There's also a Charm (I forget the name) that gives extra actions or attacks useable anytime in the following year or something like that.


Learning from Exalts, with the exception of Sidereal MA which Solars can learn for the normal price in my games provided they have a tutor (good luck!), is stupid because getting through a whole tree costs far too much.

 

[Persell]

I have to disagree. A few spirit charms are really worth their while. Learning Dematerialize from a weak elemental (weak elementals meaning less Essence meaning lesser Essence cost) is pretty powerful. There's also a Charm (I forget the name) that gives extra actions or attacks useable anytime in the following year or something like that.

dematerialize now has a formula for use when exalted or god blooded learn it regardless of who you learn is from (from the players guide)


of (essencex5) +45% of your total essence pool


so someone with essence 2 would pay (2x5)+45 = 55% of their combined peripheral and personal essence pools


the other charm you're thinking of is Principle of Motion.


i've seen a couple of 1st level charms for other exalts that if eclipse get hold of is sick and wrong. Absence being one of them. they can also theoretically.


Also the Eclipse anima power is only useless if you have a crap ST. all the eclipse needs to seal an oath - is an agreement and a touch of hands. so if you're negotiating with someone, you come to an agreement and you shake hands with someone you can sanctify that as an oath. it doesn;t require a specific wording and it most certainly does not require a willing target.  Also most things are aware of the consequences of such a thing and so are unlikely to break it unless they have no choice. And it does say that the botches will occur at the worst moments. so whilst indeed it is entirely in the hands of the story tellers to adjudicate if they aren't dealing with it fairly then there is somethnig wrong with the way they run the game.

 

[Joseph]

I have to disagree. A few spirit charms are really worth their while. Learning Dematerialize from a weak elemental (weak elementals meaning less Essence meaning lesser Essence cost) is pretty powerful. There's also a Charm (I forget the name) that gives extra actions or attacks useable anytime in the following year or something like that.

Dematerialize is at times, useful, yes.  Solars could easily create an Occult Charm of their OWN that allowed for Dematerialization, though, and probably for less than the cost of the Charm.


The Extra Action Charm you refer to could also be mimicked with Solar Charms.  In both cases there's simply no reason to pay exorbiant double prices for something you could make using your own Charms.

 

[Joseph]

i've seen a couple of 1st level charms for other exalts that if eclipse get hold of is sick and wrong. Absence being one of them. they can also theoretically.

Absence is a terrible Charm for an Eclipse.  At 1 mote per TN reduction as the Charm cost, that means 2 motes per TN reduction for them.  That means lowering the TN of a Dodge by 3 costs 6 motes, the same price as just going ahead and perfectly dodging with Seven Shadow Evasion.


How is this Charm useful at all to them?  To maximize its benefit, they're all ready paying so much they might as well perfectly dodge, and the perfect dodge is much easier for them to get.


A Charm that IS useful for the Eclipse to buy is Trouble Reduction Strategy, the Sidereal Charm which allows them to use their Dodge Charms on behalf of another.  This would allow them to give a Lunar, for instance, Flow Like Blood activated on them.  However, again, I think they could just make their own version of this Charm, instead of pirating it for expensive costs.


Solar Charms are just so GOOD that they can easily make very similar if not identical versions of these Charms.  The few Charms they can't emulate are either impossible to get (like Deadly Beastman Transformation), or not worth it anyway for them (like TN reduction).

 

[Persell]

Solar Charms are just so GOOD that they can easily make very similar if not identical versions of these Charms.  The few Charms they can't emulate are either impossible to get (like Deadly Beastman Transformation), or not worth it anyway for them (like TN reduction).

the trick to creating new charms is theme.


Making a charm which allows you to dematerialize isn't thematic for solars - solars are the aspects of rulers and leadership, they're designed to be heroic leaders,


making a charm which mimics principle of Motion - possibly but certainly not below essence 6 (personally i'd put it probably at a 7)   which makes principle of motion quite handly for an eclipse of lesser permanent essence (our eclipse only has essence 3 but a decent valor and is finding incredibly useful.)


a solar Shouldn't be able to make a charm allowing him to use his charms on behalf of another person because thats not following with the theme of solars.


Solar Charms ought to improve their ability to make actions or provide low level (ie 1 or two dice) bonuses to Large numbers of people


solars shouldn't just be able to duplicate any charm - they're talented generalists all the other exalt types are specialists.

 

[Relic]

We'll in my opinion a 1 suxx roll isn't unfair.  Think about it' date=' characters/NPCs with valor 2 probably only have a 65% chance of succeding (this number is pure estimate) and I have failed many rolls of standard diff with 3 dice.  I wouldn't say its worth 5 motes against major fights, but in combat vs. extras and common warriors, it could be useful.[/quote']
The chance of succes on 2 dice (corresponding to a weak extra) is 64%.


The chance of succes on 3 dice (corresponding to a competent extra, such as a city guard) is 78.4%

I thought it was 10 motes. Or did it get errata'd down in cost?

The core book says 10 motes, and having looked through the errata on White Wolf's homepage (are there other documents out there? If so, please share) I found nothing saying otherwise.


Both the price and the chance of shrugging it off is too high in my opinion. Off the top of my head I'd probably impose a penalty of 1 dice if the valor check succeeds, and 2 if it doesn't. That would make the power count against those 20 extras.

 

[Persell]

In my games, Dawn Castes using their power add 2 dice to all they lead into battle, rather than the lame intimidation thing.  I find it much more reasonable, and much more true to their "inspiring leader" motif.

I like that addition very much. Consider it stolen But I will probably keep the old one around any way and just apply it to large numbers of extras. The mechanics may be a little screwed, but I wouldn't waste time on mechanics anyway with most extras. Wow, the Dawn anima power suddenly became useful

Twilights I'm going to change eventually, but I still haven't come up with something to my satisfaction.  The damage reduction power is totally out of place for them, period.  You can say "Oh, but it helps them while they are casting..." but there's nothing about it that is specific to casting or their role.  It's damage mitigation, nothing else.  I may give them something like being able to cast a single Spell in advance and store it within their anima banner, being able to release it reflexively anytime their anima is showing (it would need to be recast and restored to be used again in this fashion).

Agreed. The Twilight power has been annoying me for a while. I think your "spell matrix" idea is fine and would be very useful, though maybe a bit overpowered. Another possibility would be letting it be spirit oriented in some way or maybe a general essence sense.

 

[Persell]

Dematerialize is at times, useful, yes.  Solars could easily create an Occult Charm of their OWN that allowed for Dematerialization, though, and probably for less than the cost of the Charm.


The Extra Action Charm you refer to could also be mimicked with Solar Charms.  In both cases there's simply no reason to pay exorbiant double prices for something you could make using your own Charms.

I agree, but there is the question of prerequisite. I suppose Principle of Motion would be athletics (Movement) and Dematerialize occult, and probably high-tiered Charms at that. And they're not canon (a problem with a number of STs). Having the right Virtue at the right level seems much easier to me, and paying 20 XP for one Charm costs less than 60 XPs + the costs of the ability for a Charm Tree, especially if you don't care about said Charm Tree.

 

[Persell]

About the Dawn Caste Anima power:


It would be absolutely great if all people failing fled the scene. Even with 25% success, it could incite a rout for a whole army. This is how I use it, personally. It doesn't work on Exalted (they're not mortals in my book), but I make it work on ghosts, since ghosts do know fear. Beastmen and the like are affected too. Hungry ghosts and all other supernatural creatures is out.


While useless against a small number of opponents, it's absolutely deadly against an army.


I make the zenith caste able to deal aggrav damage to demons also (it fits more with the Primordial War imho).


Twilight Caste: I change the Anima power completely: By paying 10 motes and having their iconic anima flaring for a scene, they may cast spells of any Circle one round faster than normal. This is not compatible with other effects that would do reduce the time needed to cast a spell, and it only applies to spells that take the normal number of turns to be cast according to their Circle of Sorcery.


Night Caste: I count the 10 motes for the Muted Anima effect as personal Essence, as though it was payed double to hide the anima flaring.


Otherwise, it gets you a ridiculously small bonus to hide, but also makes an anima display to show you, which is stupid imho.


The Eclipse Caste power I leave as it is. And "horribly botch a critical roll" means botching a dodge attempt by rolling all ones on an attack by another Exalt, adding that many dice to the attacker's successes. Not trip and fall while going to the bathroom. It does in my games anyway.

 

[Valheru]

The only Anima power's I've used have been my Full Moon's and my Alchies(Who, in my opinion, have some of the best anima powers around).

 

[Joseph]

the trick to creating new charms is theme.

I agree.

 Making a charm which allows you to dematerialize isn't thematic for solars - solars are the aspects of rulers and leadership, they're designed to be heroic leaders,

Solars are designed to be more than heroic leaders.  The vast majority of their Charms and powers have nothing to do with leading.  Solars ARE the "leaders" of the Exalted, but their powers clearly extend beyond leadership in MYRIAD ways.  There is a Solar Survival Charm that calls down a gout of fire upon someone as an attack.  What does that have to do with leadership?  What does not being noticed as you lie in an alleyway have to do with leadership?  What does Essence Sight have to do with leadership?  Solars can do these things.


An Occult Dematerialization Charm would be plenty easy for a Solar to make.

making a charm which mimics principle of Motion - possibly but certainly not below essence 6 (personally i'd put it probably at a 7)   which makes principle of motion quite handly for an eclipse of lesser permanent essence (our eclipse only has essence 3 but a decent valor and is finding incredibly useful.)

Yeah, I don't know how to tell you this, but this is arbitrary and stupid.  There is no logic or rationale behind Principle of Motion being an Essence 6 - 7 Charm.  Essence 6 gives you access to a Charm LIKE Principle of Motion, except all those actions are PERFECT DEFENSES.  Saying a Charm that just gave you extra hanging actions would also be Essence 6 just shows me you probably shouldn't be advising anyone.

 a solar Shouldn't be able to make a charm allowing him to use his charms on behalf of another person because thats not following with the theme of solars.

Sure it is.  In fact, it's even in theme with the Solar "theme" YOU yourself cited: leadership.  Part of leadership is power delegation.  Using your Charms on others is delegating your power to them; you "give" them your Flow Like Blood so they can use that power to better serve you.  you "give" them a burst of incredible speed so they can perfectly dodge an attack while fighting under your banner.


Seriously, you're discrediting yourself fast here.

 Solar Charms ought to improve their ability to make actions or provide low level (ie 1 or two dice) bonuses to Large numbers of people

Solar Charms can clearly do MUCH, MUCH more than that.  

 solars shouldn't just be able to duplicate any charm - they're talented generalists all the other exalt types are specialists.

I hate to say it, but:


http://members.shaw.ca/spudnewt/sierran ... adluck.swf


That said, they clearly cannot duplicate ANY Charm.  They can't duplicate Deadly Beastman Transformation or other similar Shapeshifting Charms.  They cannot duplicate TN reducing Charms or other true Fate manipulation Charms.  As you can see, NOTHING I've said is forcing them to intrude on other Exalts domains; it just so happens that the specialty Charms of other Exalts are either TRULY off limits (as in the case of DBT), or almost never actually worth the double price and activation cost (as in the case of Fate manipulators).


So no, they can't copy anything, but they CAN almost always make a useful Charm that is at the very least similar enough to be more worthwhile than the Charm in question.  Anyone experienced recognizes this.

 

[Joseph]

I agree, but there is the question of prerequisite. I suppose Principle of Motion would be athletics (Movement) ...

I'd definitely put it under Athletics also, probably in the same tree as Thunderbolt Attack Prana and the such.  

... and Dematerialize occult, and probably high-tiered Charms at that.

I'd probably do Essence 3 Occult myself.  Alchemicals have a Charm that lets them dematerialize around there, it seems like an appropriate level for a rather mediocre effect like dematerialization in general.

 And they're not canon (a problem with a number of STs). Having the right Virtue at the right level seems much easier to me, and paying 20 XP for one Charm costs less than 60 XPs + the costs of the ability for a Charm Tree, especially if you don't care about said Charm Tree.

Depends.  Remember, it's not just 20 XP for the Charm, it's 20 XP for the Charm AND double activation cost forever.  In the long run, I think most players would find themselves happier paying out a little extra XP for any required prerequisites, and in the end getting a Charm that really was better for them.


As far as the canonical point, this is why I really wish they'd print Charm guidelines instead of spam us with examples.

 

[Persell]

I think your point is entirely valid, but my point proves that, sometimes, the Eclipse Anima power allowing to learn other Charms can be useful. Not groundbreaking, maybe, but useful, or at least useable.

 

[Lurker in Darkness]

One of my players learned how to use the Portal spirit charm, from a fire elemental. Although it has a quite steep cost, it has come in handy many times.


Also, don´t forget the Eclipse Caste has safe passage amongst the nastiest peoples of Creation (demons, spirits, etc.). And they can also enter Yu-Shan much more easily than other Solars.