Creatures of Darkness

[cyl]

I wondered recently why Fair Folk demons and undead were labelled as "creatures of darkness"...


For demon and undead I got it... Primordial taint.


But for Fair Folk... there share no direct bonds with Primordial or their taint...


So I wonder...


Were "the ennemies of Creation" defined when the exalt were first designed ???


This would mean exalts have the power to get rid of the Fair Folk (since they are the ennemies of Creation, that would seem logic), and creatures "tainted by Primordial essence" (which includes every creature on the face of Creation, gods included)...


My point is: Ghost Eating Technique allows a Solar to anihilate a spirit, that was the role of the Solars, deliver the final blow on the core soul of the Primordials... this necessarily work for all spirits, as at the time, Primordials and their minions were not "creatures of darkness" yet (they became that when they were broken to Yozis and Neverborn)...


So why demons and undead fall under this category since they appeared loooooooong after the Exalt were created ???


My theory on that: the label "creatures of darkness" actually includes every being that is not a part of Creation by origin. This is the only common trait between Fair Folk, undead, and demons I can think of and would explain why the Yozis were sent away.


Therefore it would not really be creatures of darkness, but actually "aliens from outer worlds"


My only problems with this are 5DD and the dark broods... why does they fall into that category since their origins relate them to Creation ???


Any comments on that thought as I can't seem to make it fit ?

 

[greasy golem gunk]

dropped this in the volcanoes thread, but i think it's more appropriate here.

EDIT: as for the Holy, I think all celestials at some point have a holy tag linked to a charm. So I guess it would mean Luna and the Maidens represent holiness as well as the sun.


It would be only logical since they were chosen to be the protectors of Creation.

So, "Holy" is just a tag that says "the high divine things in creation think you're bad, so you suffer from this tag"? It seems that holy isn't so much "HOLY" as it is "you're politically unfavorable".


Holy seems to work on demons (pieces of angry primordials) and the dead; why wouldn't Holy work on pieces of Auto-bot or Gaias souls?


If the incarnae and Autobot had a spat, would "holy" work on his 2nd and 1st circle, um, demons?


-g3 spouting nonsense-

And it's asking questions, but I think we're both wondering a lot of the same things.

 

[cyl]

About the Autobots... maybe Autochton Prime built the exalt so they would be less efficient (=would not do agg damage) against "autobots" and "creations of Gaia" (which is partly false, because solars can destroy spirits).


Maybe he built the exalt to consider 5dd and the dark broods in as well as the "aliens from outer worlds" category.

 

[nero1]

Where does it include Fair Folk as Creature of Darkness? I never found it that way. Creature of Darkness are the Creature of the Underworld, Ghost, Dead and the like, as well as Demons and similiar creatures. I did not find where the rules say this term includes Fair Folk or Automaton or Spirits.

 

[Dracogryff]

Where does it include Fair Folk as Creature of Darkness? I never found it that way. Creature of Darkness are the Creature of the Underworld, Ghost, Dead and the like, as well as Demons and similiar creatures. I did not find where the rules say this term includes Fair Folk or Automaton or Spirits.

Sidebar, Core book, page 192, titled 'Charm Concept: "Creatures of Darkness"' is where you find the rules for that.

These include' date=' but are not limited to: Yozis, demons Neverborn, walking dead, ghosts, Deathlords, unshaped Fair Folk, Abyssal Exalted and Infernal Exalted.[/quote']
It does say only unshaped Fair Folk, so one might argue that one that's taken a form doesn't count, but Fae are on the list in at least some fashion. According to that, a "Creature of Darkness" are 'enemies of the world' as judged (if it's necessary) by the Unconquored Sun.


Basically, it sounds like if you wound up on the US's shit-list, you can figure Holy Charms are gonna be a bitch, from that little writeup. Though if you're a good boy and normally on it, likewise you might manage to get an exemption. Quite a prayer roll required, I suspect....

 

[Decurion]

I wondered recently why Fair Folk demons and undead were labelled as "creatures of darkness"...
For demon and undead I got it... Primordial taint.


But for Fair Folk... there share no direct bonds with Primordial or their taint...

Actually, not correct.


Primordials are essentially, incredibly powerful shaped Fair Folk. Fair Folk = Weaker (by several orders of magnitude) Primordials.


The Wyld is still the same shapeless chaos that the Primordials shaped Creation out of. It's all the same energy, just expressed differently.

 

[cyl]

Actually, not correct.


Primordials are essentially, incredibly powerful shaped Fair Folk. Fair Folk = Weaker (by several orders of magnitude) Primordials.


The Wyld is still the same shapeless chaos that the Primordials shaped Creation out of. It's all the same energy, just expressed differently.

That's only a theory, nothing canon here.


They do share common origins, but it is stated in the books that they are something really really different from the Fair Ones.


But yeah, maybe the "shitlist" theory might work: any creature added to the shiltilst by the Big Shiny Boss, automatically becomes a creature of darkness.


It's a good mode of administration ^^

 

[nero1]

dragon gryff perfectly clear! I had not noticed the unshaped Fae. I guess it's al left a bit unspecified on purpose of having the ST decide.

 

[Nemal]

Actually, note that the Unconquered Sun has the power to actually assert his will over Creation as a whole. Remember the Salinan working? He can do stuff like that.


So, yeah, if he puts his mind to it, the Unconquered Sun can pronounce all people called "Joe" to be creatures of darkness... and they would become so. He's not changing the way Holy Charms work at all, the whole of Creation would regard people called "Joe" as an enemy. Joes would find sunlight uncomfortable. Spirits would deal with them in a more hostile manner.


It's not "just" the Sun's say-so; that say-so comes backed with the power of reality.

 

[Persell]

AFAIK Fair Folk who have taken a shape count as "creatures of the Wyld". Unshaped Fair Folk count as "creatures of darkness".

 

[cyl]

I like the "Joe is the ennemy" theory, but since Fair Folk taking shape are no longer considered creatures of darkness (while they still are ennemies of Creation), it would seem that the "aliens from outer worlds" theory is more accurate... because the Great Maker or the Sun would have modified it if they could (unless they considered shaped Fae to be small fry which is totally possible).


But I can't still explain the Dark Broods and 5DD then...


Strange thing about it is that Abyssal do agg damage against creatures of the wyld...


I guess shaped and unshaped share the label creatures of the wyld anyway.

 

[Persell]

I think "creature of darkness" is a label the gods decide upon. Probably sol, luna and the maidens got together defined it and applied it when creating the charms for their exalts. I think they put fairfolk into it because they and their motivations are utterly anathema to creation.


Unshaped fair folk are a lot like primodials, too.

 

[Persell]

Strange thing about it is that Abyssal do agg damage against creatures of the wyld...

Chaotic and unlimited potential seem pretty antithetical to the overall goal of bringing everything into the quiet of oblivion, where potential ends forever. It makes sense from a mechanical and thematic viewpoint.

 

[cyl]

I think "creature of darkness" is a label the gods decide upon. Probably sol, luna and the maidens got together defined it and applied it when creating the charms for their exalts. I think they put fairfolk into it because they and their motivations are utterly anathema to creation.
Unshaped fair folk are a lot like primodials, too.

I think so too but I don't understand how the label "creatures of darkness" work (mainly: was this definition fixed at the creation of the exalts or is it evolutive ?)


I think it is evolutive, since the dead and the demons are "creatures of darkness" and did not exist until the end of the Primordial Wars...


But here are my questions:


- the label do not include shaped faes, only unshaped (why ?): this is the one question I can't answer, why shaped ones are not considered "ennemies". Because if not, Zenith anima powers do not apply to them.


- Dark Broods are included (why ?): this is the most understandable, after they defeated the Primordials the Incarnae wanted to make sure that if those guys came back, the exalt would pump them back


- 5 Days Darkness is included (why ?): perhaps a personal grudge (they say the gods didn't like him because he couldn't stand the light of the sun)


As for the deathknights and creatures of the wyld, that I can understand : old grudges of the Primordials over the Wyld.

 

[Brickwall]

Why shaped fae might not be CoD: For the reason that they are shaped. They have bound themselves to Creation. I personally always just rule that shaped Fae are CoD, but this is a reasoning I would consider valid, if annoying.

 

[Persell]

This might help: in DotFA, there's a nasty new Performance charm which allows a Solar to permanently declare a target to be a Creature of Darkness, by making an incredibly difficult prayer check to the big man himself. This would obviously necessitate that the list of CoDs is somewhat changeable, which makes sense, as there'd obviously be the need to update it should some new threat come to Creation.


Basically, from what I can tell, Creatures of Darkness are basically just beings or groups of beings that the Unconquered Sun has declared as a threat to Creation. He has the right to declare more beings to be CoDs, and Creation would thus bend to his will (though I wonder if he can revoke his own decision, as well?). The only real exception is Five Days Darkness, but he's only a CoD because of his nature: there's no evidence that the Sun has anything against him.

 

[Sherwood]

The difficult thing to do there would be to get the US's attention away from the Games and listen to anyone. He was willing to dump his own Chosen down the shitter, why would he even care to declare something new to be a CoD? It would be quite a job.

 

[Brickwall]

The difficult thing to do there would be to get the US's attention away from the Games and listen to anyone. He was willing to dump his own Chosen down the shitter, why would he even care to declare something new to be a CoD? It would be quite a job.

Obviously represented by the difficulty of the prayer roll.

 

[TheReagent]

Here another theory:


Why would UC even need to update the list?


I mean Charm even those listed in the holy type are manifestation of a character essence.


In short in mean that the character that first designed the charm viewed this as unholy or an insult to the sun when he designed the charm. The UC can declare creature of darkness but would also have given his chosen the power to do so, to give them a edge in the battle against primordial. Up so far there are 3 being i have seen capable of doing that UC, 5-days-darkness and is chosen.


Why do i think this is a good theory?


Well the way the exaltation were designed was so that the incarna could not to many extend control or interfer with their exalt. Why so that the primordial could not order them to stop their exalt, when the war come. Plus beside those martial art charm, charm are made to be intuitive leap of how to shape your essence. There would be no fixed list per say, but i't would be fair to say I't change from exalt to exalt. They listed Demon, undead and unshapen faes only because of how obviously they want creation demise. the prayer roll i think is to put something on the same level as they are. kind of like a general alarm. off course not everything the character see as evil is included in there those working for heaven or the good working of cretion could have made a pact not to be included. let say a character see a murder god, that does not mean the god evil, i't just doing i't job.


hope i made a valid point.

 

[NateDojo]

Hi, I'm Nate.


Anyway, the way I've heard the "Creatures of Darkness" category explained before is that the tag encompasses anything that it antithetical by nature to the Unconquered Sun. Five Days' Darkness is the Anti-Sun, or at least a manifestation of it, no matter how close he wants to be to the US. The US was designed to keep the Wyld at bay, along with Luna, and thus the Wyld is anathema to Sol Invictus. The Underworld and Malfeas is composed of servants of the enemy of the US and his Chosen, thus they are Creatures of Darkness.

 

[Sherwood]

Welcome to the ECR, Nate. You will not find a more wretched layer of villany and dispair anyplace on the Internet. Well, maybe you can. But that's not the point! :wink:

 

[NateDojo]

Thanks!


Edit: I have been meaning to check out these forums for a while. I'm almost always interested in talking about Exalted, and sometimes the dreaded White Wolf boards crawl to a slow... crawl. Anyway, lots here to read!

 

[Smeggedoff]

FLEE! while you still can...you'd better leave all of your valuables here, they may already be infected...


(welcomes)