Craft (simplified)

[The Matt]

Okay, so I think it's widely acknowledged that craft is a huge xp hole, to the extent that it is much more expensive to play as an accomplished engineer than as a master ninja - realistic? Maybe. Worth it in play? Hardly.


As I see it there are plenty of limits in place to stop a character from ruining a game by just churning out stuff; repair times and costs, need of magical tool shops, epic ingredient requirements, lost formula and plans, etc. It shouldn't also be necessary to make it so damn expensive.


I had just been charging half price for craft abilities, but what if...


I just got rid of all the esoteric crafts. Exalted, almost by definition can do epic shit with what mortals use to get by, so what if the regular crafts were all they needed, with proper training, to do everything else.


Sidereals would need craft air and earth to plan fate. (delicate, precision work, but on a massive structure-scale) Certain fates would require more of other elements, and then you actually get some literal use of their ability names.


Necro-surgery and moliation become really fucked up uses of craft wood, with some water thrown in if anything needs boiling or chemical treatment.


Magitech gets thrown out too- just use whatever makes sense. A mortal uses craft fire to make tiny cogs, another uses craft air to precisely put them together to make a cuckoo clock mechanism and a carpenter uses craft wood to make the wooden frame.


Exalts, or trained mortals, could use the same abilities to make a wooden bodied clockwork boy. Why the hell not?


Thoughts? Is this a decent fix?

 

[Zaramis]

No fix is needed in my mind. Abilities are dirt cheap as it is, and with Craft Fire and Craft Magitech you can already produce wonders that can make up for more exp than you already spent in them. Craft is one of the most worthwhile abilities, but it could be used in more things, to make the lesser used crafts worth it as well. For example:


Craft ( Water ) could be used in Thaumaturgy of Alchemy.


Craft ( Air ) could be used to make artifacts of smaller sizes, jewels etc.


And other creative uses. I like that crafts are different, but I can agree that it's a little weird, considering that Lore is all the lores in the world all into one, heh.

 

[random5000uk]

to the extent that it is much more expensive to play as an accomplished engineer than as a master ninja...

could you explain this one out to me, i don't see how thats right

 

[uteck]

to the extent that it is much more expensive to play as an accomplished engineer than as a master ninja...

could you explain this one out to me, i don't see how thats right

Ignoring Charms, there is only 1 MA ability, whereas there are 8? Craft abilities.  
While we are griping about how bad some of the game design is; it is kind of silly that they have Melee covering all hand-held weapons, but 2 different ones for ranged weapons.  And, Eclipse are described as master martial artists, but don't get it as a Caste Ability by default.


Is there a Sol Invictus for 2nd ed yet?

 

[Dracogryff]

Personally, if I thought craft needed fixing (which I don't...it doesn't seem like that big of an issue to me, what you get out of it makes it worth the effort and all, as has been said by others), this isn't a solution I would use. There's another solution I've seen proposed elsewhere which is (IMO) simpler, and a better implementation of somplification.


Simply make the five basic crafts (Fire, Earth, Air, Water, Wood) into a single craft skill, Craft (Elemental). They didn't adress how to handle how to adjuts for multiple craft minimum requirements for certain exoteric ones...but what I'd probably do is make all esoteric crafts require a Craft (Elemental) 3 and another appropriate ability at 3 (Like Medicine for Genesis, or Lore for Magitech).


But, that's me. I feel that keeping Magitech and the other esoteric crafts separate is much more important than ensuring that woodworking and architecture don't fall under the same category. I still don't feel that Craft needs any changes myself, but if others find it a waste of XP, that's their opinion of course.

 

[Persell]

Ninjas are actually trained extensively in far more than just Martial Arts.  There's also Stealth, Athletics, Thrown, Larceny and Awareness to name a few.


Or did you mean "accomplished martial artist" instead of "master ninja"?

 

[tjcoonrod]

You have a major paradox to address by getting rid of the 'esoteric' crafts.


Pretty much any mortal, godblood, dragonblood, etc can buy the five normal crafts. So, if you do not need esoteric crafts such as craft:magitech - then why is there such a hard time fixing, repairing, creating, etc 'wonders of the lost age'?


Personally, I think there is no problem with the craft system myself, but I suppose it's just a difference of opinion.


The very first game of exalted I played a twilight, who was heavy into crafts, with my minor branchout being medicine. I got a lot of use with crafts, and had a lot of fun in the process. Even the 'mundane' crafts, not just the esoteric ones.


I suppose you *could* address the paradox with ridiculously high difficulty thresholds, in that perhaps only solars could gather up that many success, but that still makes it a bit of a stretch explaining why *lunars* or *sidereals* really can't repair/create/etc 1st age artifacts, to any degree of efficiency. Especially high essence, old sidereals, such as Kejak.

 

[Coyotekin]

Dracogryff, the requirements for Esoteric Crafts is explained on Page 8 in Wonders of The Lost Age, in the darkened square.


As for Craft, I have not had so much of an issue with it and neither have my players. I think the reason it is so extensive is that unlike with other skills you can make a living outright. Sure you could hire yourself as an assasin, or a guide, etc., but all of them still require tools. A ninja requires proper attire, blades, thrown weapons, escape items, etc. And the Artificer, whether crafter of mundane or arcane still gets a high demand for their goods. And let's face it, they are the ones capable of making Artifacts, the things that Epic adventures have been based around.


This is not to debase those quests to find the MA Master that is the sole keeper of a dying art, or perhaps the survivor that has trekked through the WYld and such.


In the end I have no problem keeping the system. It keeps everyone from crafting things haphazardly unless they really want to put effort into it. Otherwise if everyone could do it so easily then everyone would be.

 

[Dracogryff]

I know where they are. I was just saying that the person who proposed making Craft (Fire, Air, Earth, Wood, Water) into one single craft messed things up some. I mean, Magitech requires three separate Craft skills. If the five standard crafts were rolled into one, as was suggested elsewhere, that messes the requirements up. If all you have is Craft (Elemental) to cover all five basic crafts, what would the prerequisite be for Magitech now? Fire no longer exists, nor Air. That's what I was talking about.


I do know what the requirements for them normally are...this thread is discussing changing the way Craft works. So I was offering suggestion.

 

[wordman]

I think the five elemental crafts are largely fine. I use house rules for some of the esoteric stuff, though, as well as the basic handling of the craft skill. In these rules (of which there are numerous common variants around the web), Crafts are bought as specialties, rather than new abilities. The basic craft rules I use are here. I don't use Magitech and the other First Age crafts, though; instead, I use the mundane crafts in conjunction with Sciences.


These rules have been working pretty well, allowing characters who want to be artificers to do so without disproportionately sacrificing other things to do so, while at the same time preventing characters from being able to do all things Craft and encouraging specialization within various types of Craft (and Science).

 

[tjcoonrod]

I think the five elemental crafts are largely fine. I use house rules for some of the esoteric stuff, though, as well as the basic handling of the craft skill. In these rules (of which there are numerous common variants around the web), Crafts are bought as specialties, rather than new abilities. The basic craft rules I use are here. I don't use Magitech and the other First Age crafts, though; instead, I use the mundane crafts in conjunction with Sciences.
These rules have been working pretty well, allowing characters who want to be artificers to do so without disproportionately sacrificing other things to do so, while at the same time preventing characters from being able to do all things Craft and encouraging specialization within various types of Craft (and Science).

Taking a gander at your house rules, I do not like them. If I wanted a twilight caste, and wanted to get my way towards craft magitech to build or repair artifacts, it would cost a whole heck of a lot more, not just in downtime but in xp costs, than using the craft system as is. I suppose that is fine if you want to make the craft system harder to 'master' - but it really does not allow a character to be an artificer without disproportionately sacrificing other things to do so. But it works for your game and you, so kudos (and ignore my opinion, for that is really all that matters).

 

[wordman]

If I wanted a twilight caste, and wanted to get my way towards craft magitech to build or repair artifacts, it would cost a whole heck of a lot more, not just in downtime but in xp costs, than using the craft system as is.

They are about the same, actually.


Canonically, for a twilight to fix something like, say, a warstrider (Repair 3), he would need the following (based on reqirements from WotLA, and assuming purchase from nothing):

• Craft (Fire) at 2 (requirement to learn Craft (Magitech)) - 4xp
  
• Craft (Air) at 2 (requirement to learn Craft (Magitech)) - 4xp
  
• Craft (Water, Earth or Wood) at 1 (requirement to learn Craft (Magitech)) - 3xp
  
• Lore at 5 (needs to be 4 as a requirement to learn Craft (Magitech) 4, needs to be 5 to do a Repair 3) - 19xp
  
• Craft (Magitech) to 4 (required for Repair 3) - 12xp
  
• Occult to 4 (required for Repair 3) - 12xp
  
• Total - 54xp

Using my rules for the same twilight:

• Craft to 3 (taking a Fire +0 specialty for free) - 7xp
  
• Taking Fire specialty to +1 - 3xp
  
• Taking Air specialty at +0 - 3xp
  
• Lore at 5 (required for Magitech science 2) - 19xp
  
• Occult to 4 (required for Magitech science 2) - 12xp
  
• Perfection to 1 (required for Magitech science 2) - 2xp
  
• Magitech to 2 (required to do Repair 3) - 5xp
  
• Total - 51xp

So, the two seem close, with mine being slightly cheaper. If you add the additional craft to mine (not required under my system), you buy another Craft specialty at +0 for 3xp, so the cost would be equivalent. The result wouldn't be, though, as with the canonical way, you'd have Craft (Fire) 2, Craft (Air) 2 and Craft (Wood) 1 and under mine you'd have, essentially, Craft (Fire) 4, Craft (Air) 3 and Craft (Wood) 3.


For a solar, that's roughly the cost of buying six caste charms, or about two-thirds of a martial art. That doesn't seem to bad compared to with the utility it buys you.


Really, my house rules give you two things:

1. The specialties rule makes creating masters of mundane crafts no longer ridiculous. That is, compare the costs of a character with five dots in all the mundane crafts between systems.
   
2. The sciences give the ST control over when and how much First Age knowledge is injected into a campaign and provides players with a game mechanical reason for finding knowledge.

Granted, you could do both of these with good narrative, ST fiat and hand-waving as well. My concentration sucks enough to like the consistency of the Science system.

 

[tjcoonrod]

I apologize if I misunderstood your house rules. I thought you had to purchase sciences with xp as well. Perhaps I was looking at the higher end of the sciences, I thought the costs were ridiculous. Perhaps that was total cost, I dunno. Thanks for breaking it down.


*edited* never mind, I see you have the science cost at the bottom.

 

[Braydz]

Back when Craft was a whole myriad of pidgeon-holed things in 1e I house-ruled that Craft was taken with a primary material, secondary materials being Specialties without the 3/Ability limitation.


My only problem with 2e Craft is that I took some minor issue with what they were putting under what Craft, so I made them more conceptually broad that material-consistent. For example, depending on what kind of carpentry we're talking about, it could fall under Craft: Earth (for structures), Craft: Air (for fine carvings and delicate work) or Craft: Wood (for small, every-day items that one needs to get by), rather than just Craft: Wood because it is wood.


I don't think that the 2e Crafts need any revisions based on XP cost because each Craft is relatively broad with Specialties available for more specific crafts, and in my opinion most people who make their living at a craft will have no more than Craft: (whatever) 2, with Specialties in their bailiwick.


So a master engineer would only need Craft: Earth with some specialties, just like the master martial artist just needs Martial Arts with some specialties. A master craftsman might need more, but so would a master ninja.


With this conception I'm undecided as to whether the "esoteric crafts" are even really necessary. So few people in Creation (of which PCs and central NPCs are exceptions) have an Ability at 3 that requiring Craft: Fire, Craft: Air and Lore each at 3 to do Repair 1 would limit the number of people who can work with Magitech enough to make Magitech non-ubiquitous in my mind. Working with Magitech or Genesis is supposed to be a bitch. If you really want to be a master Magitechnician without spending 18 more XP, take a Specialty. (For which ability? Any one, I'd think, ultimately subject to "ST says so.")

 

[Decurion]

My only problem with 2e Craft is that I took some minor issue with what they were putting under what Craft, so I made them more conceptually broad that material-consistent. For example, depending on what kind of carpentry we're talking about, it could fall under Craft: Earth (for structures), Craft: Air (for fine carvings and delicate work) or Craft: Wood (for small, every-day items that one needs to get by), rather than just Craft: Wood because it is wood.

Doesn't that kind of hose Craft: Wood unless you add in other stuff and/or change the basis of that craft?

 

[Persell]

On the house building analogy:


Craft: Wood for cutting and shaping the logs into lumber and brewing the glues. (Or Fire for forging girders and beams.)


Craft: Earth for putting it all together in a cohesive structure/item.


Craft: Air for decorating it.


I can hear the argument now that "Well, that means that no one person is going to be able to put up a house!"  


That's right.  Typically, no ONE person is going to be able to build anything by himself.  Builders hire people as teams, because no one person is going to be good at everything for the most part.


Wood arrives from the lumber yard pre-cut and ready to put together by people who are trained in construction. The build team puts it together into a structure.  The fine, delicate work, such as the initial blueprints, any interior fixtures, wiring installations and interior decorating is done by another team or three entirely.


The counter argument to that is, pioneers used to build their own homes.  Yeah, and it took them forever to do as most of the time, they only had a basic idea of what they wanted, and let's face it... sod houses and log cabins aren't much to look at.

 

[Persell]

Sidereals would need craft air and earth to plan fate. (delicate' date=' precision work, but on a massive structure-scale) Certain fates would require more of other elements, and then you actually get some literal use of their ability names.[/quote']
Just one more thing about this section in particular.  Instead of Sidereals needing one Craft skill to do their jobs, you're going to make them take ALL of the base Crafts to do their job?


Explain to me how that's cheaper in the long run.

 

[Braydz]

My only problem with 2e Craft is that I took some minor issue with what they were putting under what Craft, so I made them more conceptually broad that material-consistent. For example, depending on what kind of carpentry we're talking about, it could fall under Craft: Earth (for structures), Craft: Air (for fine carvings and delicate work) or Craft: Wood (for small, every-day items that one needs to get by), rather than just Craft: Wood because it is wood.

Doesn't that kind of hose Craft: Wood unless you add in other stuff and/or change the basis of that craft?

Pardon my phrasing, apparently I wasn't clear.


This is just one example of the concept rather than material driven division between the Crafts I came up with. The actual revisions/clarifications are as follows:


   * Craft: Earth; masonry, architecture, carpentry, anything utilitarian or that would be considered a structure


   * Craft: Wood; anything having to do with living and growing things, from bonzais to livestock, as well as goods based on such things like cloth, rope and cooking and simple every-day items


   * Craft: Water; what one would generally think of as chemistry or rooted in chemistry, though not Alchemy: tanning as well as dying leather, soaps, basic acids