Viewpoint Competitiveness in RP groups.

[Jet]

Writers can be competitive and arrogant when it comes to their work. You see that with professionals and the same exists in amateur groups like ours over here, and I've seen it first hand in previous roleplays. Thankfully my current one doesn't have that kind of atmosphere, but I've seen RPs where competitiveness overtakes reason and people become jealous and petty.

The best example was an RP where the best writer was consistently overlooked when praise was given out. Where they got a couple cookies and maybe a heart reaction on their posts, and absolutely no praise whatsoever. Yet mediocre writers were given tons of praise along with seven well-written reactions, three great scenes and all kinds of hype from the other writers. I spent a lot of time thinking about why that happened, why a talented writer was ignored every time they posted, while my writing (which was putrid at the time) was praised like fucking Shakespeare.

I concluded that many people in our community are competitive and when faced with a superior writer, or even a writer of the same level, many withhold praise and ignore their work to preserve their egos. They feel that praise is admitting defeat and even worse than that, its admitting that someone else is better. Yet mediocre writers aren't a threat so praise is given out like candy.

For example, I once wrote a dumpster fire wIth massive text walls and cheesy dialog tags, and who can forget the assload of unnecessary exposition. It was utter dogshit. Yet someone told me word for word, "You're so talented! You should write a book!"

Yet my best writing has been met with muted praise at best, or insinuated like, "Looks like I'll need to bring my A game."

I don't really know if there's a point to this thread. I'm bored and there's not much going on here today, so fuck it, but it's a weird phenomenon I've noticed over the years. That the best are ignored while the median is exalted like writing gods with endless talent.

If you catch yourself doing this to someone, take a step back and evaluate your decision, because this treatment gives people an imposter complex. They look at their writing and say "Well this is pretty good!"

They post their work with a proud smile at what they accomplished, and then nothing — no flowers, no compliments, no excitement from the crowd, even social alienation from jealous peers. Then someone else writes a mediocre entry and everyone lauds them with praise like they did something great. Now the great writer sits there and questions their self image as someone with writing talent, and may obsessively tweak their work and feel stressed because of it. I've had to reassure someone who went through this kind of treatment, where they were being ostracized and ignored because imo, they were better than the field.

So maybe toss them a bone.

Also PS to anyone from my RP, if anyone from over there sees this thread, this is 100% not about you guys (seriously, we actually do praise each other regardless of talent levels and its a great community). This is about stuff from years ago when I wasn't in a consistent group, and roamed the RP landscape like a hobo.

 

[Lorsh]

Possibly a tl;dr moment, which honestly shouldn't happen in the first place tho

 

[Jet]

Possibly a tl;dr moment, which honestly shouldn't happen in the first place tho

Can you clarify? Do you mean the good writer wrote too much in these cases? I can promise that's not the case as many times the bad writers (my old self included) posted a lot more words.

 

[Cogwork]

I think there's a lot less selfish reason behind it.

I think people just assume that more skilled writers already have received a lot of praise and as such they focus on the less skilled ones.

I also think that people just have higher standards for skilled writers than bad ones, so it's easier for the latter to excel their expectations.

 

[A Sparkling Zombie]

Gonna say upfront that I don't disagree with jealousy being a motivator in at least some cases. Also, to be clear, I do agree that it's good to exercise mindfulness, or to be a good team player and extend praise to everyone in the group. You never know when someone might actually need it. So, good message overall.

But I'm gonna play devil's advocate, because if I haven't established myself as a contrarian yet, then I don't know what I'm really accomplishing here!

Without knowing your own experiences, there are a few other possible explanations I see:

• Some roleplayers are Chatty Kathys. Those personalities build rapport with each other quickly, if they aren't already friends. Having that rapport paves the avenue for praise since the recipient is already deemed as approachable. That, and if we're trying to be friendly to someone we like, we naturally pay closer attention to their efforts. The quieter players, meanwhile, might not have established that approachability, so those same people giving praise might feel more awkward about doing so with them, or they just don't think about it since the quiet ones aren't contributing as actively to the OOC. I'm not at all saying this is right, just that there might be other aspects of human nature that are involved.
• Many writers are led by their hearts and don't really consider tempering that. They see characters they really like and become invested in seeing them in action, or they really want to roleplay with them, so they're going to make more of an effort with those players to get in their good graces. I imagine this can especially be true in groups where there is any kind of pairing component - romantic or not. Again, not trying to condone it.
• Opinions are subjective. Avid readers have probably picked up at least one NYT bestseller and have been like, "THIS trash is a bestseller?!" And there have been enough threads about post lengths to highlight the intrinsic divide between the verbose and the concise (for lack of a more neutral classification). Someone who has decided to equate wordiness with better writing will of course respond better to the longer post over the shorter one.

Hopefully this all makes sense. I'm operating on little sleep. : P

 

[faerylunala]

I think it is a bit more nuanced, personally. Typically, if someone is what would be considered a good roleplayer, they have presumably had years and years of experience to get to that level. Whereas someone who may be considered more of a mediocre roleplayer could be new and just starting out in the roleplay scene. Usually, if someone has been roleplaying for years, they are pretty well established in their craft and likely their own confidence. Likewise, someone who is new to the scene may not have that same confidence or establishment. I would likely view it less as diminishing the work of someone who has put in so much effort into their responses and gotten little in return, and moreso viewing it as giving encouragement to people who may be just starting out. Someone who has been roleplaying for years is assumed to not need the level of encouragement someone who is new is presumed to need.

Now of course, this isn't to say not everyone in the group deserves the same level of praise. Giving everyone the same level of praise is the ideal, however it is a bit of an area of subjective opinion, as Sparkling Zombie said. If someone is more of an advanced literate to novella writer, they will of course gravitate towards writing styles that match theirs. Likewise, if someone is more semi-literate to literate, they may be intimidated by the novella writer just like how the novella writer is unimpressed by the semi-literate writer. It all comes down to personal taste and opinion, and I think is a bit more of a nuanced situation rather than something that is completely black and white.

I also have to agree that a level of sociability likely comes into play here, as well. If a group is on more friendly terms with someone who gives shorter responses, they will probably feel much more comfortable giving that person praise compared to the person who is more quiet but gives those longer, detailed responses. Some people go into roleplay looking to make friends, while some are in the roleplay just for the roleplay. In my experience, friends are typically more likely to compliment each other while they may feel a bit awkward complimenting someone who isn't as chatty. It is a matter of personal differences and differing expectations, at the end of the day. I also don't know the context or your personal experiences, but from my outside perspective and drawing on my past experiences, this is how I remember it being.

 

[A Sparkling Zombie]

Giving everyone the same level of praise is the ideal, however it is a bit of an area of subjective opinion, as Sparkling Zombie said.

Just to clarify my stance right quick, I don't think style preferences necessarily exempts someone from extending kindness. I might not care for the long-form styles of roleplay, because, in general, that style doesn't suit my reading preferences, but, as a team player, I could still recognize what I do like about those posts and offer compliments in the spirit of camaraderie. Whether or not I personally like that the GM accepted the author into the game, they made that decision and I can respect that, since it is their game, and still try to make that person feel included, or leave if I feel like I'm going to be a threat to group cohesion.

I mean, yes, paying compliments is a skill that shouldn't be forced, but I think Jet's overall message is worth considering.

 

[k0arr]

I try to go off the general rule of, never assume ill intent when you can just as easily blame obliviousness.

I don’t think most people think about it too much, or at least I don’t. I especially don’t think people are purposefully ostracizing seasoned writers.

Complimenting your partners is great and it cultivates bonds and overall just feels really good but I’ve never gone into an rp requiring it nor needing it. Basing one’s own enjoyment of their skills/hobbies on the approval of others is a slippery slope that more oft, at least for me, ends up in unnecessary self deprecation. I try to avoid that head space. Especially since, as mentioned above, a lot of people gravitate towards certain personality types that tend to mesh well or mirror their own.

 

[Jet]

faerylunala

Very fair points but many great writers are extremely self conscious and have imposter syndrome. I don't think that people are always aware of that, and most good writers won't make them aware because it sounds like compliment fishing. These writers end up suffering in silence and I've had conversations with multiple writers because of it, ones who were losing motivation and questioning if they were any good, and weren't having fun with RPs anymore.

Is it healthy to base your self perception on the praise of other people? No most definitely not. I've overcome that and really don't care if I receive any compliments or not, but some people have confidence issues and this behavior makes it worse.

I also agree that other motivations exist for this behavior, but I've seen many examples where it gets petty and overly competitive, where people go out of their way to ignore the good work of a superior writer, or denigrate them behind their backs.

So while I do agree that other motivations exist, I maintain that competitiveness, and jealous pettiness, does motivate many of these cases.

A Sparkling Zombie

You made sense lol.

And I agree again that other motivations exist, and maliciousness isn't behind all of them. It's just something I've seen in certain RPs.

The biggest offenders would be middling groups where everyone is trying to sound sophisticated, and sweats their nuts off for every single post. Those RPs have a lot of egotism leading to praise denial and other forms of pettiness. The classic, "I leave well written on every post, even the text walls with broken grammar and nonsensical Marty Stu writing, but your posts will get cookies."

And this isn't about my own experiences, strictly observations about other people. I'm trying to avoid personal involvement because I'm not complaining about my own posts. But I've seen absolutely stellar writing get dogged for no good reason..

But again that's not every case, and my apologies if I came across as an absolutist. I don't think that everyone is conspiring to make the best writers hate themselves. I agree that other reasons exist but I also think, despite how rare it seems on the surface, competitiveness and jealousy are more common than we think.

I'm not sure what the point of my thread even is lmao, but it's something I've noticed and never seen addressed.

 

[cuzn]

I concluded that many people in our community are competitive and when faced with a superior writer, or even a writer of the same level, many withhold praise and ignore their work to preserve their egos.

That can certainly be the cause, but I've seen many more situations in which it's quite the opposite; many people realize that worse writers may need the extra praise and support, especially when in the same RP group as people who are simply better at writing than they are. I try not to assume that everyone is competitive and shallow, because I'm not competitive with my writing so it makes no sense for me to assume that everyone else is.

I don't think people do this to preserve their egos. Most people actually don't care about being better than another person. Everyone understands what it's like to suck at writing, and to look at someone else's writing and feel very discouraged because of the comparison. A majority of young writers stop writing altogether simply because someone next to them wrote something better and they felt horrible and untalented because of it, so I see a lot of people showering this new wave of amateur writers in praise just to try and ease the growing pains that every writer goes through during those early stages.

(I, for one, love reading the work of amateur writers specifically because I remember posting my first fanfiction at 11 years old, and I also remember the very first comment I received and just how much it meant to me for someone else to read, like, and comment on what I wrote. I like being that person for other people because even years later I still remember my first RPN roleplay partner and just how happy I felt when they messaged me and welcomed me to the site)

Something very similar happens with artists, where the 'worse' artists or the more amateur artists will get much more praise for their work than those who are more skilled or talented. I've been both the best and the worst writer and artist in separate groups, and I can tell from firsthand experience that this can make it very lonely and discouraging for the 'best' in the group to be overlooked for the sake of those who are obviously below their level—especially so when most people (myself included) are too shy or value humility too much to say anything about it. It can be very disheartening to know that you'll never get the praise that people who are 'worse' than you get, especially when you don't want to think of other people as 'worse' than you at all for fear of how truly arrogant and stuck-up it sounds even in your own head.

On the other hand, there certainly is a competitive issue in group RPs especially, but I haven't seen this so much in praising others' work as in the good ol' "my character is better/stronger/more interesting than yours and should get all the attention because of it" ... In general, I find that this type of mindset exists more prominently in younger and more immature authors, and for me that's most of what I was dealing with when I was writing in middle school. By high school everyone stopped caring, and now that I'm 20, basically nobody that I RP with cares about that type of thing. Most people just sort of... Age out of jealousy-inspired bullying as they mature, if they mature at all.

I think it's a good idea to praise all writers for their work, whether good or bad, and to become the solution to the problem rather than to assume that a majority of people are "egotistical, pompous, competitive, jealous" when, in reality, these are people you met online - unless you know them in real life, you have no idea who they are, so I always try to avoid making harsh judgements on other people's character when I've never even met them.

 

[Jet]

cuzn

I agree but you seem to think I'm an absolutist who thinks that everyone is a scheming petty bastard lol. I've agreed that many other reasons exist for this phenomenon, most being thoughtless at the very worst, and usually innocent or well meaning in nature. You should read my follow ups if that didn't come out in my original post, because I don't think the worst of everyone. If you agree that pettiness happens in even some cases, as you said in your post, then you 100% align with me. My concern is addressing this because outside of a few individual conversations I've had with people, I've never seen this mentioned anywhere.

If anything I want people to understand that good writers need props as much as anyone else, and you touched on a really important thing in your reply, something I completely neglected. That most people think it's arrogant to say "I'm so much better than this guy."

And it sounds delusional to think, "I'm so good that people never compliment me, and this other guy sucks so people compliment him."

It sounds like the ultimate seethe/cope combo for a terrible writer who can't admit they suck, even when it's the truth for reasons you outlined, where new writers are praised because they need support, while good writers aren't because they don't need it.

Many good writers doubt themselves because they shrug away those "delusional" thoughts, and develop feelings of inferiority to lesser writers. This is made even worse because these writers are the ones who take it most seriously.

And maybe I'm a purist but I praise quality, and praising bad writers doesn't actually help them. It cripples them. My progress was dampened because people convinced me I was actually good, even when my writing was absolutely terrible. I wasted years down a path of passive sentences and cheesy dialogue tags, redundant explanations and telling instead of showing, because nobody would tell me the damn truth. I don't see fake praise as helpful unless framed in the true context of its intent, such as, "For a beginner you're doing a really good job, keep up the good work and keep learning!"

If my post serves as anything, it could be a reminder that good writers are human and have doubts as well, and in this community they often have confidence issues. I'm not suffering from these issues myself, and I have no issues with how many compliments I do or don't receive, but I've seen it demolish good writers and in a few troubling cases, I've seen good writers ruin their style because of their doubts. I've watched them abuse a thesaurus to sound more sophisticated and well versed in their writing, and in doing so, they created impenetrable walls of obscure text using words from the early 19th century.

I'm not even exaggerating lmao. I've seen this with two different writers who were damaged because when they actually got good, everyone acted like their writing didn't exist. It was passed over while in one case, I was praised for my absolutely miserable writing. That damaged this writer because they started modeling themselves after me (a horrible idea at the time) and I developed an ego because I thought the praise was real. They lost years of progress and my progress was stunted, because nobody praised quality and wanted to feel good instead.

I mean think about it. If you write like shit and everyone supports you with validating praise, and then you write well and nobody says a word, what does that communicate? You're telling someone that their new writing is worse even though it's actually better, and encourage stagnation at the bottom of a barrel.

Also, one last point, many people aren't morally good. I've noticed this attitude on RPN where the best assumptions are made for almost everyone, but think of the average person when it comes to their morality, and remember that half of humanity is worse. I'm not saying that everyone should be viewed like monsters waiting to show their colors, but ego and selfishness are two core components of humanity, and in this case, it can be easily disguised under the reasons you gave, such as supporting bad writers because they need it.

 

[cuzn]

Jet

We're pretty much in agreement aside from our viewpoints. I think this is mostly due to the fact that I'm not comfortable using any type of language that could be seen as insulting, so I hesitate when saying that someone sucks at writing when, in reality, all of us suck when compared to some, and all of us are masters when compared to others. I find that it's both more helpful and a sign of good character to give people the benefit of the doubt when I can. I don't make judgements on other people's morality or character based on 'the majority' simply due to the fact that there is no scientific way to know if the majority of people are 'good' or 'bad'. There is no moral objective that encompasses the entire universe and everyone within it; the only thing that comes close is based on religious belief, and even that is inherently subjective. I would think myself unfair if I said that most people are 'bad people' or that most people are 'egotistical' or 'pompous', particularly because those types of words could really hurt someone, and the last thing I want to do is be a bully.

And maybe I'm a purist but I praise quality, and praising bad writers doesn't actually help them. It cripples them. My progress was dampened because people convinced me I was actually good, even when my writing was absolutely terrible. I wasted years down a path of passive sentences and cheesy dialogue tags, redundant explanations and telling instead of showing, because nobody would tell me the damn truth. I don't see fake praise as helpful unless framed in the true context of its intent, such as, "For a beginner you're doing a really good job, keep up the good work and keep learning!"

This is a very interesting point. However, I think that all praise is given for a good cause, or else nobody would bother praising other people. For what I'd say is a majority of people in any creative field, it is much easier to see the faults in your own creation rather than the highlights. A lot of people base their perception of their own skill on either that warped self-image or on the praise and attention of others. If people were blindly giving praise to everything someone did, I'm sure there are a few people who could get an inflated image of their own skill based on it, but I wouldn't say that's the responsibility or fault of the people who praised them.

I don't see praising bad writing as a bad thing at all. I see it the same as praising bad artists—everyone is horrible when they start out, and everyone needs some amount of encouragement (though some need more than others). While I understand your point that good writers often get overlooked, can't people just praise everyone for their own personal strengths? I've met many writers who were generally less skilled than myself and yet had a unique trait in their writing that I couldn't emulate, and that unique trait is what eventually grows with their skill to become a defining trait in their style.

Everyone is deserving of praise regardless of their skill, just like everyone is deserving of respect—if I said that I wasn't going to praise this specific person because they "aren't good enough to deserve it", I would feel like an elitist bully. In reality, I don't care if someone's writing is good or bad. Most people don't unless they're RPing with the person or unless they're reading their book, and even then, unless they're being forced to read the book, if it's bad they can just put it down. It doesn't cost anything to give praise and encouragement, and if you give praise that is both encouraging and helpful ("I really like the way you do x. You should do it more often!" "I really like the way you do x, IMO I think it would be interesting if you did y next time, as well!"), that will make a very large and positive impact on another person, regardless of their skill.

I agree but you seem to think I'm an absolutist who thinks that everyone is a scheming petty bastard lol.

lol I don't think anything about you, I don't know you so I don't make judgement, I just figured this is a really interesting conversation topic so I put my two cents in. I don't tend to judge the personal character of people on the internet.

 

[NeonFlow]

I agree, I'm actually the best writer but you would never know because of subjective opinions and petty jealousy.
wow look at me shitpost

 

[gator]

I never leave reactions. We should be writing to communicate. Not to impress.

 

[Jet]

I never leave reactions. We should be writing to communicate. Not to impress.

Yes that would be ideal, but that's like telling depressed people to stop being sad. I've been around a long, long time and while I have absolutely no problem with getting or not getting praise, I've seen people have mental breakdowns because in their minds (and on paper when I read their work) they were really good writers, but they were ignored while others (with vastly inferior writing) were heavily praised.

If you don't compliment anyone that's fine, you're a net neutral. I'm cautioning against praising bad writers and ignoring good ones, because authorial blindness is real. This isn't a sport where no matter what people say or don't say, you can look at your stats and know you played well. This is a heavily subjective field where self evaluation is often incorrect, because we innately understand and envision the scenes we write. You can write total garbage but it makes complete sense when you read it, and the better you are at writing, the more cognizant you become of that bias. Which means that internal validation becomes harder and harder to come by.

 

[Daisie]

I never leave reactions. We should be writing to communicate. Not to impress.

I heavily disagree, lol. We should be writing for many, many more reasons than bare communication. Among those is writing to have fun. And if clicking a cute button and adding a little heart onto a post you genuinely enjoyed reading contributes a little bit to that fun, then push that cute button, folks!

 

[Cogwork]

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious flaw in this theory which is that if it was true my posts would get a lot more likes than they do.

 

[BuggaBoo]

Hi!!

Idk about it being competitive when rpers judge each other's IC'ly posts. But for the most part I find that people gushing over each other's posts are usually the gm or friends/familiar with the poster. Like same goes with the little emoji reactions.

But i don't blame em at all. If they my friends I'd support tf outta them so yeah no probs there. Yet I get how it can seem petty if all the praise is like only centered on a few and not the rest of the group.

Tbh tho I'd rather just not say anything or react and just leave the judging to rpers that wanna do that.

Oh but i will comment, like subscribe in OOC forums tho lol

 

[gator]

Yes, fun is the most important thing. That's why communication is the most important thing. If the other players don't understand me, we can't play together. And not playing is less fun than playing.