Combos and confusion

[Persell]

So it turns out I don't actually understand the Combo rules very well. Therefore, a couple questions for the board.


First off: can a supplemental Charm in a Combo benefit a dice action of that Ability that is granted by an Extra Action Charm which is not of that Ability? I'm thinking specifically of Tornado Offense Technique here, which can be used with any ranged attack. (Exalted, p. 214: "If there are no simple Charms in the Combo, the supplemental Charm must benefit the character's dice action. Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can only benefit uses of the Ability they are based on.")


Second: This is sort of a lemma to the above. How does splitting your dice pool work with a Combo which includes supplemental Charms, but not simple or Extra Action Charms? The above-quoted text seems to imply that it is permissible to have Charms of different Abilities in a Combo together, so long as you don't use them on the same actions, but this runs totally counter to my previous understanding of Combos.


Third: I was under the impression that reflexive Charms can be freely included in Combos, without regard to Abilities. If that's the case, then why does Power Reaping Prana say it can explicitly be used with Charms of other Abilities, when it's reflexive and doesn't need the disclaimer? And if it's not the case, then how the devil do reflexive Charms work in Combos?


(I'd appreciate it if, if you give an answer based on textual reference, you could include the book and page number. Until yesterday, I was dead certain I had Combos all figured out; then a couple offhand comments made me look back at the books and I realized I couldn't find some of the basic things about Combos that I "knew" written down anywhere. Help?}

 

[memesis]

First off: can a supplemental Charm in a Combo benefit a dice action of that Ability that is granted by an Extra Action Charm which is not of that Ability?
Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can only benefit uses of the Ability they are based on.")

This answers itself.


If you have an EA Charm, ALL Supplemental Charms MUST apply to the ability the EA Charm comes from.

How does splitting your dice pool work with a Combo which includes supplemental Charms, but not simple or Extra Action Charms?

You can declare multiple actions.  Your Supplemental Charms MUST be able to legally supplement all those actions, e.g. be of the ability in question.  Some Supplemental Charms limit you further.  If you Combo Excellent Strike and Hungry Tiger Technique, you will be doing nothing but attacking with Melee for your turn.

Third: I was under the impression that reflexive Charms can be freely included in Combos, without regard to Abilities.

They can be included regardless of Ability.  Specific Charm text does not supercede the general rules unless it specifically says it does, and nothing in the world stops Charm text from being misleading or poorly-worded (e.g. several non-Instant canonical Charms talk about how they may not be Comboed in specific circumstances, but never say it's actually possible to Combo them to begin with).

 

[wordman]

So it turns out I don't actually understand the Combo rules very well.

This flowchart for determining if a combo is legal helped me out a ton. You might also want to take a look at my house rules, which fill some gaps.

 

[Persell]

First off: can a supplemental Charm in a Combo benefit a dice action of that Ability that is granted by an Extra Action Charm which is not of that Ability?
Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can only benefit uses of the Ability they are based on.")

This answers itself.


If you have an EA Charm, ALL Supplemental Charms MUST apply to the ability the EA Charm comes from.

Let me clarify my question further. The way it is written in the main book implies that you must use supplemental Charms to benefit dice actions of the relevant Ability. However, some EA Charms grant dice actions that can come from more than one Ability. I'm sure you're right; in fact, that was my understanding of the way Combos worked before this confusion arose in my soul. But where is it written? Or is it taken to be implied?


I'm not trying to rules-lawyer here; I'm trying to get a handle on how things are written, as there's so damned much material it makes my brain overflow and I don't feel comfortable making a house-rule that overrides something I didn't understand to begin with.

You can declare multiple actions.  Your Supplemental Charms MUST be able to legally supplement all those actions, e.g. be of the ability in question.  Some Supplemental Charms limit you further.  If you Combo Excellent Strike and Hungry Tiger Technique, you will be doing nothing but attacking with Melee for your turn.

Hmm. So if I have supplemental Melee Charms in a Combo, I can't split my dice pool to both dodge and attack? (And, again, where is this stated?)

...and nothing in the world stops Charm text from being misleading or poorly-worded (e.g. several non-Instant canonical Charms talk about how they may not be Comboed in specific circumstances, but never say it's actually possible to Combo them to begin with).

That's about what I figured, on this issue. Thanks much!

 

[memesis]

The way it is written in the main book implies that you must use supplemental Charms to benefit dice actions of the relevant Ability. However, some EA Charms grant dice actions that can come from more than one Ability.

It is not implied.  It is clearly stated.


p. 214, Supplemental Charms:


"If there are no simple Charms in the Combo, the supplemental Charm MUST benefit the character's dice action.  Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can only benefit uses of the Ability they are based on."


and p. 214, Extra Action Charms:


"If there are supplemental Charms in the Combo, they MUST be used to benefit every action the character makes, be it a normal dice action or an action-type Charm."


In other words, even if your Snake Style Extra Action Charm lets you make MA attacks or parries, the moment you combo it with a Supplemental or Simple Charm, you give up that ability.  What you get instead is the ability to make several actions of whatever type your simple/supplemental Charms dictate.

Hmm. So if I have supplemental Melee Charms in a Combo, I can't split my dice pool to both dodge and attack? (And, again, where is this stated?)

Correct.  This is stated above, by the words "MUST benefit the character's dice action".  Unless you want to stretch the definition of "benefit" beyond all reason, the clear meaning is:  The Supplemental Charms in your Combo must all be applicable to the sort of action you are taking.  If the Charm gives +1 to attacks, you must be making attacks.  If it gives +1 to dodges, you must be dodging.

 

[Persell]

p. 214, Supplemental Charms:
"If there are no simple Charms in the Combo, the supplemental Charm MUST benefit the character's dice action.  Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can only benefit uses of the Ability they are based on."


and p. 214, Extra Action Charms:


"If there are supplemental Charms in the Combo, they MUST be used to benefit every action the character makes, be it a normal dice action or an action-type Charm."


In other words, even if your Snake Style Extra Action Charm lets you make MA attacks or parries, the moment you combo it with a Supplemental or Simple Charm, you give up that ability.  What you get instead is the ability to make several actions of whatever type your simple/supplemental Charms dictate.

::feels like he's beating his head against a wall, and suspects his interlocutor does as well::


Perhaps I'm just being dense, but I honestly don't see how that follows.


Consider the example which brought this whole problem to light in my mind: someone who knows Tornado Offense Technique and Crosswind Offense, and wants to Combo them in order to make multiple full-pool Thrown attacks at people behind cover. (The particular example also had him using Loyal Weapon; the idea was that his daiklave would continuously whirl around the cover, striking all the while, then fly back to his hand. A very cool Combo.)


The attacks he wishes to make are a) ranged attacks, and b) with the Thrown Ability. Tornado Offense Technique allows you to make Martial Arts attacks or ranged attacks, so there's no violation of the rules in that direction. Similarly, the attacks are "uses of the Thrown Ability", so there's no violation in that direction either. The Combo satisfies the supplemental Charms' requirement that they be used to benefit a use of the ability that it's based on; similarly, it satisfies the Extra Action Charm's requirement that all the supplemental Charms benefit every action the character makes. The Combo seems legal.


There seems to be a basic assumption that "you cannot include simple, supplemental, or EA Charms of different Abilities in a Combo unless the Charm description says otherwise", but the wording in the main book is rather more complex. It does say explicitly that cross-Ability simple/supplemental Combos are illegal, and also says that cross-Ability simple/EA Combos are illegal, but it doesn't explicitly address cross-Ability supplemental/EA Combos.  I agree that the general consensus is a much more sensible way to handle things, and I'm probably going to house-rule TOT to say "unarmed Martial Arts attacks", so that it includes chakrams but not other ranged attacks - either that or make it Comboable with Charms of other Abilities, like Harmony of Blows, because it really is a cool Combo that my player has come up with and I don't want to disallow it - but it's a weird question nonetheless and it bothers me.

 

[memesis]

Consider the example which brought this whole problem to light in my mind: someone who knows Tornado Offense Technique and Crosswind Offense, and wants to Combo them in order to make multiple full-pool Thrown attacks at people behind cover. (The particular example also had him using Loyal Weapon; the idea was that his daiklave would continuously whirl around the cover, striking all the while, then fly back to his hand. A very cool Combo.)

You can stop here, if all you care about is the rules.  "Unless the Charm's description states otherwise, supplemental Charms can ONLY benefit uses of the Ability they are based on."  Tornado Offense Technique mentions making "a martial arts or ranged attack".


Now, you can read this one of two ways:


1. The Charm text lets you make regular Martial Arts and attacks using Martial Arts with the chakram only, since it's an Air Dragon signature weapon and can be used at range.  In this scenario the Charm text is clumsy but still holds up.


2. The Charm lets you make absolutely any sort of ranged attack, including with weapons that would otherwise never, ever be legal weapons for Air Dragon Style, making it a huge exception to every other MA Charm.


Which do you find more reasonable?

There seems to be a basic assumption that "you cannot include simple, supplemental, or EA Charms of different Abilities in a Combo unless the Charm description says otherwise", but the wording in the main book is rather more complex.

Again, this is not assumed, this is clearly stated and supported by the text.  The text doesn't need to explicitly handle the scenario you describe because it is already handled in two separate places - by the text for Supplemental Charms, and by the text for Extra Action Charms.

I agree that the general consensus is a much more sensible way to handle things, and I'm probably going to house-rule TOT to say "unarmed Martial Arts attacks", so that it includes chakrams but not other ranged attacks - either that or make it Comboable with Charms of other Abilities, like Harmony of Blows, because it really is a cool Combo that my player has come up with and I don't want to disallow it - but it's a weird question nonetheless and it bothers me.

Then what you REALLY want is a way to say "yes" to an otherwise-illegal Combo.  As a Storyteller, you have two choices:


1. Say "yes" and ignore the legality of the Combo.  You are perfectly within your right to do so, this is what being ST is about.


2. Say "no", and give the character the opportunity to learn a Thrown EA Charm that does the same thing.

 

[Persell]

Erk. I'm going to stop here, as we seem to be saying the same things at each other back and forth without actually getting anywhere.


Thanks for taking the time to try to penetrate my thick skull, and sorry for hitting you with it repeatedly. ::grins:: I'm going to chalk this one up to me being a moron, and go house-rule the lot of it.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Hmm. So if I have supplemental Melee Charms in a Combo, I can't split my dice pool to both dodge and attack? (And, again, where is this stated?)

Correct.  This is stated above, by the words "MUST benefit the character's dice action".  Unless you want to stretch the definition of "benefit" beyond all reason, the clear meaning is:  The Supplemental Charms in your Combo must all be applicable to the sort of action you are taking.  If the Charm gives +1 to attacks, you must be making attacks.  If it gives +1 to dodges, you must be dodging.

 Um, so you're saying, if the combo contains a reflexive dodge dice-adder incapable of buying from 0 (requires an original pool of 1+), the character can't split the dice action between attacks and dodges to benefit from both charms in the combo?

 

[memesis]

Correct.  This is stated above, by the words "MUST benefit the character's dice action".  Unless you want to stretch the definition of "benefit" beyond all reason, the clear meaning is:  The Supplemental Charms in your Combo must all be applicable to the sort of action you are taking.  If the Charm gives +1 to attacks, you must be making attacks.  If it gives +1 to dodges, you must be dodging.

 Um, so you're saying, if the combo contains a reflexive dodge dice-adder incapable of buying from 0 (requires an original pool of 1+), the character can't split the dice action between attacks and dodges to benefit from both charms in the combo?

That sounds about right.  Per developer comments, the canonical Charms don't do this (e.g. Reed in the Wind can let you buy a dodge, but using it means you start with 0 dice and add more using the Charm).  I HAVE seen supplemental die-adders for dodges or parries, and these would fall under this usage limitation.


This is the reason that the vast majority of defensive Charms are Reflexive, and do not have this limitation.


Do you have a specific Charm in mind here?

 

[Silence In Daylight]

No, just doing a hypo.


 It'd be nice if the salient phrase from p. 214 of BWB:


"If there are supplemental Charms in the combo, they must be used to benefit every action the character makes, be it a normal dice action or an action-type Charm."


 ...was in the Supplemental Charm explanation section, where it's supposed to be. Instead, it's placed in the Extra Action Charm explanation section. Oh well.

 

[Sherwood]

Hey, if the game didn't have so many flub-ups in it, we wouldn't need message boards like this one to rant in so much, would we?

 

[humpert_humpert]

still a wee bit lost


ok, i've went through all the replies, but i still did not get it straight. Can i combo a that brawl charm that i win iniciative automaticaly with, lets say a melee charm, like perfect strike? i now that it may sound dumb for you, but, even thought i know english (sort of =P), the combo rules still puzzle me a little. Can anybody help? =)

 

[Forn Clakes]

Re: still a wee bit lost

ok' date=' i've went through all the replies, but i still did not get it straight. Can i combo a that brawl charm that i win iniciative automaticaly with, lets say a melee charm, like perfect strike? i now that it may sound dumb for you, but, even thought i know english (sort of =P), the combo rules still puzzle me a little. Can anybody help? =)[/quote']
I know what you're getting at. Thunderclap Rush Attack is a reflexive, instant Brawl Charm, so going with Combo rules, then yes, you can combine it with in a Melee, Archery, etc, specific Combo with no problems.


Personally, I view this with an air of suspicion.  My reasoning is fairly simple: for example, adding a Dodge or Resistance Charm to an offensive Combo is understandable, because defence is important, but adding a Brawl Charm that will aid the initiaitve to, say, a Melee Charm seems to be pushing the rule a tad too far.


~FC.

 

[memesis]

Re: still a wee bit lost

ok' date=' i've went through all the replies, but i still did not get it straight. Can i combo a that brawl charm that i win iniciative automaticaly with, lets say a melee charm, like perfect strike? i now that it may sound dumb for you, but, even thought i know english (sort of =P), the combo rules still puzzle me a little. Can anybody help? =)[/quote']
I know what you're getting at. Thunderclap Rush Attack is a reflexive, instant Brawl Charm, so going with Combo rules, then yes, you can combine it with in a Melee, Archery, etc, specific Combo with no problems.


Personally, I view this with an air of suspicion.  My reasoning is fairly simple: for example, adding a Dodge or Resistance Charm to an offensive Combo is understandable, because defence is important, but adding a Brawl Charm that will aid the initiaitve to, say, a Melee Charm seems to be pushing the rule a tad too far.


~FC.

Don't think of Charms so much as "things that you can only do with this one particular abilitiy", but more like "magical tricks you discover thanks to your proficiency with this one particular ability".  In other words, that most Charms do relate directly to their controlling ability doesn't mean ALL Charms must.


In the case of Thunderclap Rush Attack, the aggressiveness of Brawl becomes an overwhelming (in mechanical terms, init-winning) attack, AS LONG AS you only make one attack - thus the "no splitting" clause.  But you can take that aggressiveness and use it in other areas.

 

[Forn Clakes]

Ahhh, that makes alot more sense actually. Thanks for clearing that up, Memesis, I'll be able to explain that to one of my players.


~FC.

 

[memesis]

Re: still a wee bit lost

ok' date=' i've went through all the replies, but i still did not get it straight. Can i combo a that brawl charm that i win iniciative automaticaly with, lets say a melee charm, like perfect strike? i now that it may sound dumb for you, but, even thought i know english (sort of =P), the combo rules still puzzle me a little. Can anybody help? =)[/quote']
Combo Rules, the Short Form:


- No Non-Instant Charms.


- All Charms that are SIMPLE, SUPPLEMENTAL, or EXTRA ACTION must come from same Ability.


- Any Charms that are REFLEXIVE can be freely added.


- No more than ONE SIMPLE Charm in a Combo.


- No more than ONE EXTRA ACTION Charm in a Combo.


Exceptions:


- Lunars and Alchemicals have special rules.


- Charms which say they may EXPLICITLY be in otherwise-illegal Combos.


- Dragon-Blooded do NOT require Reflexives in Combos in order to use them [note: this is my understanding, feel free to debate the point if you think otherwise]

 

[Forn Clakes]

My understanding of DB's using reflexive Charms is that multiple reflexive Charms can be used in a turn, but if the character wants to use another type of Charm, then they have to be Comboed like every other Exalt.


Is this right, or have I misunderstood?


~FC.

 

[Flagg]

It's my understanding that DBs can use as many different Relexive Charms as they'd like in addition to any other non-Reflexive Charm or Combo.


-S

 

[Forn Clakes]

Really?  Shit, that's quite interesting.  Makes them a tad more powerful than I realised.


You learn something new everyday  


~FC.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

And it also means that DB's can plow through their limited Essence really fast if they are not careful.  However, if they are equipped with a level three Jade Hand, for instance, they would deduct three motes from the cost of any Charm of their element that they use, giving them a huge advantage.  I mean, if you're playing a charm-heavy character, it is well worth it to lose a hand for that artifact.

 

[Forn Clakes]

 I mean' date=' if you're playing a charm-heavy character, it is well worth it to lose a hand for that artifact.[/quote']
Heh, yeah, right.


~FC.