Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implications

P

Persell

Ten Thousand Club
Well, I just got the White and Black Treatise last week, and it struck me: Do Deathlords count a ghosts for casting "Banish Ghost" on?


I assume they do-Deathlords are Solar Ghosts after all-but then I wondered that, if you somehow managed it (after all, they'd probably hit you with Countermagic, unless I'm misreading something), what you would do to keep them in the Underworld so you don't have an insane god-ghost with a badly bruised ego screaming for your flesh on your sweet, juicy behind in three days (assuming the Neverborn's wrath/the other Deathlords smelling blood didn't get him first).


Then I wondered at the kind of social implications a Deathlord suffering a humiliation like that would be in the Underworld, and what the necromancer who pulled that off would be viewed as (other than "major threat").


So anyway:


Does "Banish Ghost" work on Deathlords, and if so, what would be the fallout from one being successfully sent packing to the Underworld?


Well, every Deathlord except Eye and Seven Despairs. His Banishment would just render him even more of a miserable prick then normal, and the reaction would be "Oh, the idiot got what was coming to him. Can we please get rid of him now?"
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


Deathlords are never considered ghosts for any effect that targets ghosts specifically.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


I think the Black Treatise is the How To Kill The Deathlords book. Sure, they look really deadly, but their biggest weakness is that they are, in fact, ghosts and necromancy is super effective against them.


Similarly, find a Deathlord's corpse, drive a nail through it's feet, and it'll pratfall hilariously on it's face whenever it thinks angry thoughts towards you. Now, imagine that on the First and Forsaken Lion.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

jeriausx said:
Deathlords are never considered ghosts for any effect that targets ghosts specifically.
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Why the sam hill not?
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


They are not just ghosts, they are ghost that have been fused with pieces of the Neverborns souls. They are fused with pieces of beings that cannot die but were killed. They are simply to far removed from ghosts to be considered the same. As the book says, saying a Deathlord is just a powerful ghost is like saying a Solar exalt is just a powerful mortal. Technically, it's true, but there exist a whole separate set of rules for the two.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

jeriausx said:
They are not just ghosts, they are ghost that have been fused with pieces of the Neverborns souls. They are fused with pieces of beings that cannot die but were killed. They are simply to far removed from ghosts to be considered the same. As the book says, saying a Deathlord is just a powerful ghost is like saying a Solar exalt is just a powerful mortal. Technically, it's true, but there exist a whole separate set of rules for the two.
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Sure, there exist a whole separate set of rules. Reflected in the Deathlord's higher stats.


Solars are still, however, vulnerable to swords, fire, axes, and Sorcery. Just like a mortal.


A Deathlord is still vulnerable to Necromancy. Just like a ghost.


Both of these creatures have ways and means to resist and overcome their weaknesses. This does not mean they are not weaknesses. They have to use Obsidian Countermagic like anyone else.


Quote me a passage reading "Deathlords Are Not Ghosts", or explain to me why it makes sense narratively for them to be immune to Necromancy (which, by the way, means that all sorts of elaborate storylines about characters learning the Black Arts of the Underworld so they can successfully fight the Deathlords [possibly sacrificing their morals to do so] are rendered null) and you may have a point.


EDIT: DYING MAKES YOU WEAKER. THAT IS WHY IT IS DEATH.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


I almsot agreed that a Deathlord would count as a ghost when i relized. If they are a ghost cant they be summoned by summon ghost....at which point the deathlord trainer is now a viable concept.


Also mortals seem to get stronger when they become ghosts not weaker.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


But isn't that because they're mortals, unable to even touch essence?
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

krrackknut said:
But isn't that because they're mortals, unable to even touch essence?
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Yeah, pretty much. It's a reflection on mortals, not on death, that dying makes mortals slightly more powerful.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


Saying Exalts are vulnerberable to things that don't target mortals specifically in now ways counters me saying that Deathlords are not vulnerable to things that target ghost specifically.


Ghosts can't learn the Second or Third Circle Necromancy. Ghosts don't have perfect defenses. The list of things that separate Deathlords from ghosts goes on and on. Deathlords are like ghost exalted.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


We can then assume that things that say "Ghosts" are like effects that say "Mortals". Mortals doesn't include Exalts; Ghosts doesn't need to include Deathlords.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

jeriausx said:
They are not just ghosts, they are ghost that have been fused with pieces of the Neverborns souls. They are fused with pieces of beings that cannot die but were killed.
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This.


That being said, there is no canon on exactly how Deathlords differ from powerful ghosts, no more than there are explicit specifications and explanations on how the Incarnae are more potent than other powerful Celestial divinities.


Here's a thought; while I don't agree that a simple Banish Ghost should be effective against a Deathlord (and to a lesser extent, something as powerful as a hekatonshire), Labyrinth and Void Circle versions of the spell should have the potential for doing so--once the spells are researched and developed, that is.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

MorkaisChosen said:
We can then assume that things that say "Ghosts" are like effects that say "Mortals". Mortals doesn't include Exalts; Ghosts doesn't need to include Deathlords.
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Very good way of putting. Also, just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Necromancer isn't effective against Deathlords. Just that effects that specify Ghosts, wouldn't work on them.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

jeriausx said:
MorkaisChosen said:
We can then assume that things that say "Ghosts" are like effects that say "Mortals". Mortals doesn't include Exalts; Ghosts doesn't need to include Deathlords.
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Very good way of putting. Also, just to be clear, I'm not trying to say Necromancer isn't effective against Deathlords. Just that effects that specify Ghosts, wouldn't work on them.
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I really don't get this position.


Sure, I'm down with mortal thaumaturgy not working on the Deathlords. That's fine.


But Necromancy? Seriously, you seem to be forgetting how powerful and important Necromancy is supposed to be in the underworld. Being vulnerable to Necromancy is being vulnerable to a secret, black, twisted and diabolical art that corrupts those who learn it and you invented.


Deathlords are ghosts. Hell, the god damn NEVERBORN are ghosts. The analogue is not Solars to Mortal, the analogue is Solars to Human Beings. If something affects human beings, it affects Solars. If something affects ghosts, it affects Deathlords. You know this whole thing about the Abyssals overthrowing the Deathlords? This is exactly what is meant by that. Abyssals binding their own terrible masters with their own weapon. That's frickin' irony and I see no need to do away with it - much less due to a House Rule.


And be sure, unless someone can actually quote a passage reading "Deathlords Are Immune To Necromancy" or "Deathlords Are Not Ghosts" then making them immune to necromancy IS a house rule.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

Thanqol said:
I really don't get this position.


Sure, I'm down with mortal thaumaturgy not working on the Deathlords. That's fine.


But Necromancy? Seriously, you seem to be forgetting how powerful and important Necromancy is supposed to be in the underworld. Being vulnerable to Necromancy is being vulnerable to a secret, black, twisted and diabolical art that corrupts those who learn it and you invented.


Deathlords are ghosts. Hell, the god damn NEVERBORN are ghosts. The analogue is not Solars to Mortal, the analogue is Solars to Human Beings. If something affects human beings, it affects Solars. If something affects ghosts, it affects Deathlords. You know this whole thing about the Abyssals overthrowing the Deathlords? This is exactly what is meant by that. Abyssals binding their own terrible masters with their own weapon. That's frickin' irony and I see no need to do away with it - much less due to a House Rule.


And be sure, unless someone can actually quote a passage reading "Deathlords Are Immune To Necromancy" or "Deathlords Are Not Ghosts" then making them immune to necromancy IS a house rule.
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Seconded.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

Thanqol said:
Deathlords are ghosts. Hell, the god damn NEVERBORN are ghosts. The analogue is not Solars to Mortal, the analogue is Solars to Human Beings. If something affects human beings, it affects Solars. If something affects ghosts, it affects Deathlords.
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Should this mean that Deathlords can kill Exalts by spending 3 motes? >_> Or that a Solar can take down a Primordial with nothing but Ghost-Eating Technique and "I punch him in the face"? <_<


If something like that were to happen, I would at least demand that the Deathlord also be weakened by other means--some kind of tricks are needed to take down the protections granted by the Neverborn for them to be affected like ghosts that they are. They are special beings for a reason.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

Quchu said:
Thanqol said:
Deathlords are ghosts. Hell, the god damn NEVERBORN are ghosts. The analogue is not Solars to Mortal, the analogue is Solars to Human Beings. If something affects human beings, it affects Solars. If something affects ghosts, it affects Deathlords.
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Should this mean that Deathlords can kill Exalts by spending 3 motes? >_> Or that a Solar can take down a Primordial with nothing but Ghost-Eating Technique and "I punch him in the face"? <_<
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deathlord: I am preety sure that power specify Mortals, not Humans.


Primordial: YES.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


I agree with distinction between Mortal and Human, as Humans are able to transcent their mortality by becoming enlightened. (Scroll of Errata)


But in the case of the primoradial, it's not that simple. What makes them so hard to kill is that they are effectivly a superconcioussness made up from their souls...so to kill a primordial, you would have to use that charm on ALL its complimentary souls...but once you achieved that, you've got a new neverborn, congratulation.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


The Neverborn are not ghosts. The Neverborn technically aren't dead, but are. That's kinda why the they broke the world when it happened.


Also, Abyssals p. 49

In once sense a Deathlord is simply a ghost of vast power. Saying that, however, is as much an oversimplification as saying that a Solar Exalt is simply a powerful mortal.
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So it appears that the comparison of Deathlord to ghost and Solar to mortal is pretty valid. Also, Deathlords didn't invent Necromancy., and once again I never once said they were not vulnerable to Necromancy, just that they aren't ghosta and couldn't be tageted as such. If they are just ghosts, then even mortal thaumaturgy works on them. You can't it's one way but not the other.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


People, you forget that Necromancy is a super powered plot device with A) Long timing restrictions B) Vulnerable to countermagic C) REQUIRES YOU TO ENDURE FIVE HORRIFIC TRIALS THAT LEAVE YOU CORRUPTED AND BROKEN. Being vulnerable to it is like being vulnerable to a plot macguffin. Not a huge gaping instant win weakness.


Also: In any situation where this comes up, a Deathlord will respond with:


- Countermagic. Can do it reflexively, and have a fuckton more motes than you.


- Kill you while you're trying to cast it.


- Worst case scenario? You get the spell off and CAN ESCAPE THE DEATHLORD while it waits ten minutes to regain the motes to COUNTERMAGIC YO ASS.


So yeah. Spending 5-10 ticks unmolested while a DEATHLORD is in your face and it somehow not using countermagic, despite all of them being Void circle necromancers with More Motes Than You, then sure. You can have them leave until they can cast countermagic. That counts as "Weakened by Other Means" as Quchu demands.


And I completely contest the relevence of that Abyssals quote in your argument. It says that Deathlords are ghosts, says that there are more complex factors at play than just that, but it does not say they are immune to necromancy and does not say that they are not ghosts.


EDIT: There are long lists of things that Solars are specifically immune to, over than mortals, and no such list of things Deathlords are immune to over ghosts. Because the two are likened in one block of text does not confer some hypothetical list of things that Deathlords are immune to which is as comprehensive as stuff Solars are immune to. Saying that Deathlords are like Solars does not mean they are not ghosts. It means that comparatively they are more powerful than ghosts which is already reflected in their stupidly overpowered statblocks.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


Okay...you officially are not actually reading what I wrote, I will repeat it once more and then I'm done because that's just sad.

I never once said they were not vulnerable to Necromancy, just that they aren't ghost and couldn't be targeted as such.
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So again. I never once said or inferred that Deathlords are immune to Necromancy. Just that they are not just ghost. The quote from Abyssals points out that if Deathlord=ghost, than Solar=mortal. Finally, Necromancy is no more a plot device than Sorcery.


By your logic some one can just Banish Ghost the Neverborn (you did say the Neverborn were just ghosts) and get them away from the Mouth of the Void
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


And I'm saying that your entire argument about Deathlords not equalling ghosts is based on one poorly worded paragraph that likens the two. Solars are specifically immune to things humans are vulnerable to, such as diseases. Deathlords are not specifically immune to things ghosts are vulnerable to, such as Necromancy.


Likening the two does not confer some hypothetical list of immunities similar in scale to Solars over Mortals. Deathlords are greater than ghosts because of their stat blocks, not because they are not ghosts.


Also; ordering the Neverborn away from the Mouth of the Void is an Unacceptable Order; other necromancy (such as finding their physical remains and doing stuff to it!) is possible.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


Erm... The Neverborn are their physical remains, aren't they?
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati

Deathlords are not specifically immune to things ghosts are vulnerable to
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This is not entirely true. Abyssals, pg 51:

Ghosts can be destroyed permanently via the appropriate exorcism rituals, by necromantic attacks or by Charms such as Ghost-Eating Technique, but those techniques do not work against the Deathlords.
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I am not saying this proves they are immune to necromancy, simply pointing out that it is a possibility.
 
Re: Casting "Banish Ghost" on a Deathlord, and the Implicati


That's a factor of Deathlord Immortality - they're specifically immune to death - but not to being banished or bound.
 
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