Advice/Help Can staff wielding martial artist defeat an enemy in full plate?

[Malphaestus]

I haven't mentioned the fact that a full-plate get-up has cloth padding underneath (vastly simplified), for the express purpose of minimizing blunt force trauma. This is why you would need a warhammer. Or something long, like a halberd or pole-weapon. Whilst a staff technically falls under that latter category, it does not have anything with which to deliver any sizable kinetic impact in the same manner a halberd or pole-hammer could.

 

[Idea]

I haven't mentioned the fact that a full-plate get-up has cloth padding underneath (vastly simplified), for the express purpose of minimizing blunt force trauma. This is why you would need a warhammer. Or something long, like a halberd or pole-weapon. Whilst a staff technically falls under that latter category, it does not have anything with which to deliver any sizable kinetic impact in the same manner a halberd or pole-hammer could.

Ah... gonna admit, didn't know about the padding.

 

[Nadia]

I suppose the staff is a poor weapon against full plate but I can't see how a knight could even get in range with his sword if his opponent is more maneuverable (assuming significant space in which to fight within)?

 

[Malphaestus]

I suppose the staff is a poor weapon against full plate but I can't see how a knight could even get in range with his sword if his opponent is more maneuverable (assuming significant space in which to fight within)?

You would be correct. This is also why, when the full-plate suit became a thing, knights did not need to wield shields, and instead took up two-handed weapons like the zweihander, and other pole-weapons, so that their reach would not be their downfall.

 

[Silanon]

The pointier, the better; and the more force you can get, the better. If I recall correctly, the preferred weapon for knight-vs-knight action on foot is the pollaxe - which is indeed more like a two-handed pointy hammer than an actual axe in the versions you'd try to use. Additional benefit: The fighting style seems to be not too far off from the usual quarterstaff fighting, as far as I can judge that as a clueless observer. Maybe switch weapons slightly, and get a pointy steel end to hit either plates, helmet or joints with it for your efforts?

 

[Malphaestus]

As I said before, a staff will not realistically defeat a knight. But it is fantasy, so go after the joints. Use your fire.

 

[Nadia]

Perhaps she needs a weapon upgrade, poleaxe it is
X

 

[Smoothjazzplays]

Yeah I feel like anyone in plate just needs to get a hand on someone without armor and it's over. Some YouTube videos have good examples of how fast people can move in plate as well, faster than you would think!

 

[Nadia]

My character is a staff wielding martial artist and my GM made her spar against his super awesome NPC dude who was equipped with only a sword and no amour.

They are both very skilled in their weapon of choice. The GM said his NPC won the fight. That's okay and everything but makes his character sound a bit precious.

Could a swordsman hope to defeat someone with a staff if both were excellent warriors?

 

[Daisie]

I'm a staff member :3 Use me in battle!

(Hope you've found a suitable answer, I have 0 clue ❤)

 

[Crayons]

Could a swordsman hope to defeat someone with a staff if both were excellent warriors?

Definitely. For a start there's the potential of being able to just chop the staff in half with a blow of their sword.

Also the staff wielder could get messed up by one cut from the sword whereas you might need a good few more blows with a staff to put the swordsman down.

But potential aside you should feel as though the npc's win seems plausible. If you don't then something's gone a bit wrong with the writing, or possibly with the attitude of one or both of the players. It's hard to know.

 

[Becker]

Hi everyone, stupid question coming up!

I'm in a roleplay where my girl is a martial artist and uses a staff. The GM is about to throw some plate wearing Knights at me. Could a staff hope to defeat a knight?

Thanks very much

Given that most heavily armed knights are wearing several layers of padded clothing underneath to help absorb the sheer blunt force trauma that could turn brains into jelly. Using your character's ability to conjure flames whilst aiming for the gaps in the armour where the clothing underneath is visable could have the potential to set em' alight or at best, discourage them from continuing their attack. Seeing one of their comrades rolling around on the field, frantically patting at his metal carapace whilst the flames eat away at the padded material inside could certainly deter the rest of the knights from pressing, placing them on the defensive whilst they think their next move. Having magic doesn't have to be a one-trick pony, it could make a enemy more cautious of you, allowing you as the writer to set-up some awesome moments of tension as the two sides face-off whilst trying to guage the situation. Not every fight has to be to the death, if they feel out-matched then they could feint a retreat, allowing time to gather more comrades and approach from a different angle or with new tactics.

Hope this may have perked up some of your creative skills! It was kinda fun for me to play out the fight in my head and come up with some ideas.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

This is my wheelhouse. It may be too late, but I can still educate for future use.


You're going in at an objective disadvantage. Plate armor will break your staff before the strike impacts significantly injure or disrupt your opponent. They have the distinct advantage of knowing that their armor will absorb enough of your blows that they will only need one well aimed counter strike, every time you swing.

But you're not screwed yet.

The strengths of the staff (and or spear) are agility, and range. You're going to want to make use of both with a bit of strategy.

Myself, I would focus on targeting the face guard, keeping your opponents off balance and disrupting their vision regularly. Use quick, linear attacks to slip in and out, keeping your enemy at a distance, disarming his offensive options. The key here would be biding your time. Plate armor contributes greatly to soldier fatigue, and allowing these knights to tire themselves out during the pursuit is going to be your best chance at wearing them down and picking them off one by one.

Look to your footwork and movement as your backbone in this fight. Don't get surrounded, or cornered, but also note that most plate helms create a limited range of vision. Whenever possible, strafe to either flank, take their rear. Try to get them off of their feet or on a knee, then get that helm off - it's nighty knight.

 

[The Omen of Death]

Definitely. For a start there's the potential of being able to just chop the staff in half with a blow of their sword.

Also the staff wielder could get messed up by one cut from the sword whereas you might need a good few more blows with a staff to put the swordsman down.

But potential aside you should feel as though the npc's win seems plausible. If you don't then something's gone a bit wrong with the writing, or possibly with the attitude of one or both of the players. It's hard to know.

Actually it’s much harder than you think to cut a staff in half, not because of durability per say but movement. Also the amount of damage assuming the use of a quarter staff could actually hurt a lot more than you think, blunt force trauma was the most effective means of putting down an armored knight.



This video talks about why a quarter staff actually has many advantages over wielding a sword.

And it should be noted even in Japan, the most famous samurai Miyamoto Musashi, actually wielded wooden swords because they were more effective than using real steel swords, because they could break someone’s guard better than a normal sword. And the amount of damage you could do with it literally breaks bones and whatnot.

Just saying that I think that the wooden qualities of the weapon are being underrated a bit.

 

[Crayons]

Actually it’s much harder than you think to cut a staff in half, not because of durability per say but movement. Also the amount of damage assuming the use of a quarter staff could actually hurt a lot more than you think, blunt force trauma was the most effective means of putting down an armored knight.



This video talks about why a quarter staff actually has many advantages over wielding a sword.

And it should be noted even in Japan, the most famous samurai Miyamoto Musashi, actually wielded wooden swords because they were more effective than using real steel swords, because they could break someone’s guard better than a normal sword.

I wasn't talking about armoured knights but OP's second question. Blunt force puts down an armoured knight better because ... he's armoured and blades find it hard to cut through. Doesn't mean blunt force is more effective than a blade per se.

I'm not saying a quarterstaff couldn't beat a sword, I'm saying a swordsman would be in with a good chance. That's different.

I got the impression that Miyamoto Musashi used a bokken out of pride, because he could kill people without even needing a blade: thus proving his superiority. And also because it made him look less threatening, psyching opponents into underestimating him.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

I'm not saying a quarterstaff couldn't beat a sword, I'm saying a swordsman would be in with a good chance. That's different.

If you placed a master staff wielder against a master swordsman (using about any kind of sword), I give it to the staff user 9 out of 10 times. When used properly, that range and agility will render the sword useless. A staff gives you a much more fluid range of techniques, and control over the weapon compared to just about any type of sword.

I got the impression that Miyamoto Musashi used a bokken out of pride, because he could kill people without even needing a blade: thus proving his superiority. And also because it made him look less threatening, psyching opponents into underestimating him.

Metal blades have a grocery list of problems from warping, chipping, elemental damage, and vulnerabilities when talking about glancing and metal-metal contact that wooden weapons simply do not. Also the main thing here is the blunt force impact. Samurai were fairly armored themselves, and this results in having to carefully place your strikes so as not to literally waste them against armor.

When a metal blade makes contact with an armored surface, it flexes, distributing some of that force back into the metal. This does not happen with wood. Wood has little to no flex or give, so when you hit something full power, the impact feels much more full and robust from the other side of the armor. This is why weapons like warhammers and maces are so desirable as blunt weapons. They have 0 give when you smack something, so armor or not, you're going to feel it.

If you armored up and I smacked the outside of your upper arm with a katana, it would probably sting along that area. If I smacked that same area full power with a baseball bat, I could fracture bones. That's full steel plate mail. A legit samurai with a wooden katana going at karuta armor, let's say, could break bones in half.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Nadia You might find some qiang techniques extremely useful in situations such as this one. The speed, distance and linear striking is just what the recipe calls for imo.



Your staff is probably heavier, and thicker, but some of the basic techniques are transferable in a life or death situation.

 

[Nadia]

Do you think that would be effective against a knight?

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Do you think that would be effective against a knight?

If you're looking to steamroll it with a few power swings, no. If you use agility and distance to keep out of his range, and ensure he/she always has to press toward you, using valuable stamina all the while, targeting areas like the knees and face-guard, you can wear him down very easily.

But if you want to swing that staff around like a claymore, you're going to get cleaved in half.

 

[TPBx]

oh my just pull off a pro gamer move and beat the knights already. roll a natural 20 and call it a day when you one shot their sorry asses with a crit fire ball.

 

[Nadia]

Thanks for all your replies and had made fascinating reading.

My character in the roleplay did have a few fights (one against another player character who attacked me!) with Knights but they weren't in plate armour.

Unfortunately everything was decided by dice, just a straight roll, so we didn't actually need to take anything at all into consideration.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

Thanks for all your replies and had made fascinating reading.

My character in the roleplay did have a few fights (one against another player character who attacked me!) with Knights but they weren't in plate armour.

Unfortunately everything was decided by dice, just a straight roll, so we didn't actually need to take anything at all into consideration.

It's not a very fun, challenging, creative, or rewarding way of doing combat, is it?


Regardless, all of this will help you one day become a wise, skilled fighter. The problem with big, wide, arcing swings using a staff is that it's about the most crude, desperate, telegraphed attacks you can possibly do with the weapon, not even going into poor recovery coming out of those swings.

Going against something like a sword, never use your staff like a sword. You're playing directly into their hand if you do.

 

[Nadia]

Okay, just to continue the conversation....

I have no idea on any of this but have been asking questions in other forums and watching footage.

From what I gather: a staff Vs Knight is obviously a bad idea but you could maybe turn it into a stalemate by keeping away.

Against an unarmoured sword wielding opponent, most seem to say that really the swordsman would have to take a hit from the staff if he wanted to attack. It depends on whether the swordsman could still effectively fight after the hit or got lucky. I think most agree it would be foolish to fight against a staff if you have a sword.

That's my take on all the information anyway.

Reading and watching into staff fighting has made me fall in love with my character even more. I love the movements you can make with the staff and can do flashy stuff while mastering your art

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

A staff can outright defeat a knight in full plate mail, but it's not going to be a 2-3 hitter quitter, I don't care where you strike, or how hard. It's armor, and a staff, not a Kanabō or something made for knocking knights out inside their own helmets. Staffs are not made for armored opponents, but again, if you know what you're doing with a shafted weapon, it takes a ballistic weapon to stop you.

 

[M.J. Saulnier]

People dramatically underestimate the speed and dexterity with which the shafted weapon can be executed with in their minds.



Despite how scary the defender in this demonstration may be, this gives you a sense of why the spear is one of the most favored weapons among ancient Chinese soldiers and monks alike. The spear is a savage weapon, but it is a weapon of grace, dexterity, absolute control. Many European cultures favored the sword or axe because it was a swing and pray weapon for smashing opponents into submission.

The spear is my favorite weapon of all time, the staff is up there as well, but having some form of edged weapon mounted to the end has a lot of advantages.