Can religion and gays go together?

[Henryagainsthaters]

I find myself in situations where people do not beleive that I am a lesbian christian.To them It isn't practical. They say that the two are enemies. Do they have to be. Doesn't God love all, and aren't gays just looking for equality. To me if the two came together it would be them against all evil, and they could possibly win. What do you think?

 

[Faith Eliza Cord]

I think there are many ways to interpret the same words in the Bible, and that regardless of whether or not people consider homosexuality to be a sin, even if it was, it would be a sin no worse than premarital sex or lying, which pretty much everyone, including Christians, does. I think that many people do not understand the context of which words were written nor the fact that the word homosexual did not even exist in Jesus's lifetime, and that we have translated and retranslated into other languages and cannot be sure of the original intended meaning of the word. I have read before that the actual words we now translate to homosexual were sometimes more literally "soft" or even "corruptor of young boys" or "one who sleeps with prostitutes." That is certainly not the same as homosexual in the context that we think of it as today. I think what's important for people who are Christian is whether or not they are trying to become more like Jesus and regularly take an honest assessment of themselves and their lives. So in a word, yes, to me, they can.

 

[AlbionCrusader]

I find myself in situations where people do not beleive that I am a lesbian christian.To them It isn't practical. They say that the two are enemies. Do they have to be. Doesn't God love all, and aren't gays just looking for equality. To me if the two came together it would be them against all evil, and they could possibly win. What do you think?

I'm a christian. But I believe you can be gay/homosexual(Did I use the correct term? Don't wanna set no one off here) and still be a christian. You have the right to be with who ever you want. You have the free will god gave you. But as far as getting married in a church. My opinion(Please don't get mad. Just stating my opinion) should be between a man and a woman. I'm all for gays/homosexuals getting married. As far as I'm concerned you can go to church with each other. What ever makes everone happy.

 

[GgAcE]

Only because I think someone will or may be upset with this conversation, I want to reiterate the rules in this topic.

Intelligent Discussion and Debate Rules & Regulations

1. Follow the
   
   http://www.rpnation.com/announcement.php?f=7site rules
   
   http://www.rpnation.com/announcement.php?f=7
   
2. This forum is basically "no holds bar" - As long as the forum rules are followed.
   

If you post in this section, expect a reply. If you do not like the reply, this is the section for a debate... NOT AN ARGUMENT. Both sides will be heard without insults or rude remarks.


If I see users getting out of hand in this section, your posting privileges will be revoked. Let's act like adults & have an "Intelligent Discussion"

You all may now continue =)

 

[AlbionCrusader]

I'm just stating my friendly opinion. No harm here. If anyone is offended by what I typed. I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention. I actually have a family member who is a lesbian. And as far as I know she's a believer in the bible.

 

[GgAcE]

My posting was strictly for precautionary reasons. No ones response triggered it. =)

 

[ninbinz]

It's not about whether the two things can go together it's whether people can learn to at least tolerate the combination, it'll take at least 50 to 100 years for the vatican to finally figure that out. Unfortunately the loudest voices are those against gay relationships and it just so happens that those same intolerant voices happen to misuse religion to prove their point. No man can speak with the authority, or judge with the wrath of God or any god.

 

[Nizrindane]

From my own mind, regardless if you are straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transexual, or anything else, you can be a christian and NOBODY can deny you your free will.

 

[CM-Colorless]

I was originally going to ignore this thread because I knew there isn't anything I could say that wouldn't offend anyone and everyone here, however after some thought I'd rather honor truth than honor people's feelings. If you disagree, tough.

Doesn't God love all,

No


Romans 9:11-13

"for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated,"

Psalm 5:5

"The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity"

Proverbs 6:16-19

"There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

God hates, he hates sin and sinners he has wrath for those who break his law. You cannot be a Christian and not believe that. What meaning does the cross have if God does not hate wickedness? What did Jesus die for? To deny God his hatred is to deny the beauty and necessity of the cross itself and to deny the cross is to apostatize yourself from the faith. It is because God hates sinners that Jesus became sin, to be hated and to have wrath poured out on him so that it would not be poured out on the faithful, this is the Gospel itself. How much more majestic is God's love in light of this? He didn't just die for people He loved, He died for people He hated, He died for his enemies, for people who hated Him. You cannot believe in the fullness of the love of God, I submit, if you reject His hate.

and aren't gays just looking for equality.

No


As it stood any gay or straight man could marry any gay or straight woman that would agree to marry him and vice versa, homosexuals have never been denied the right to marry. What the homosexual community wants is to redefine marriage to include two members of the same sex. There is no issue if two homosexuals want to marry the issue is that two members of the same sex want to marry. If two straight members of the same sex want to marry it is equally wrong. Marriage is more than just sexuality and to debase to something as vulgar as the nature of whose genitals you enjoy playing with is a moral evil, it robs marriage of any transcendental meaning they might have beyond the sexual. In the Christian context marriage is a specific illustration of God and his church. The role and relationship between a man and a woman are ideally meant to reflect that and they are reflected in the dynamic between the different natures that men and women have. If a man marries a man or a woman marries a woman that dynamic is not illustrated.

I think there are many ways to interpret the same words in the Bible,

Why and on what basis?

regardless of whether or not people consider homosexuality to be a sin, even if it was, it would be a sin no worse than premarital sex or lying, which pretty much everyone, including Christians, does.

I agree 100%, All sexual sin is sexual sin, if a straight person has sexual thoughts about a person who isn't their spouse it is as equally sinful as a person who has sexual thoughts about a member of the same sex. However just because sin is a part of the human condition does not mean we normalize it and accept it. Christians aren't saying they aren't sinners what they are saying is they recognize their sin, repent of it and desire to live a life where they can escape it. This is why the homosexual lifestyle is incompatible with Christianity, an unrepentant homosexual is denying that they need repentance of forgiveness for their sins. If you do not need forgiveness then you do not need Christ and have no reason to be a Christian. A homosexual is burdened with lusts for the same sex, a heterosexual is burdened with lusts for the opposite sex, why is it okay for Christians to think heterosexual sin is sin but when you extend that out to homosexual sin it becomes bigoted? Are Christians just as bigoted against heterosexuals?


I hope you realize how absurd this double standard is. We're perfectly consistent it's your side of the table who hasn't grasped the fullness of what we actually believe.

I think that many people do not understand the context of which words were written nor the fact that the word homosexual did not even exist in Jesus's lifetime,

You can learn the context of things by educating yourself, it isn't that difficult, it just requires a person ot care enough to actually give meaningful study to the subject. As for the word "homosexual" not existing, well of course not, the word "horse" didn't exist either but that doesn't mean that equivilant words or concepts didn't exist.


In 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:8 the word often translated to mean homosexuality is Arsenokoites. It can be broken up literally into it's two roots Arrhen meaning specifically a man, as in a male" and koite, a bed or euphemistically intercourse. If you look at it simply the same way you look at a word like Homosexual combining the roots homo for same and and sexuality Paul is combining Arrhen and Koite to mean to bed with a man.


Now there are those who want to say that means engaging in prostitution or pedophilia or rape or all kinds of things but this ignores, like you were accusing of other people, Pauls context. He was a jew, a very learned Jew, in fact he was rather famous in his day as being a very learned very zealous Jew. As a man of learning he would have studied from the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the old testament. and in the Septuagint you see a very similar phrase to Arsenokoites in Leviticus 20:13

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

That phrase "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman" in greek is "hos an koimethe meta arsenos koiten gunaikos." Arsenos Koiten, look at it. It's likely Paul took his idea of Arsenokoites from these two words in this verse and these two words in the context Paul would have taken them are used unambiguously in a condemnation of homosexuality. Saying it means anything other than that is an exercise in mental gymnastics.


There is a clear meaning to the word itself, there is a clear source for the term the source is unambiguous in its meaning or intent, it is unfair to Paul to twist his words out of the clear and defined and force them to be ambiguous to try and push an agenda.

and that we have translated and retranslated into other languages

This is just factually false, we know what the original language texts looked like, we know the languages we can read and translate them meaningfully and correctly. This lie that's been propagated across the internet that the biblical texts have no meaningful textual history is so false it borders on the intentionally deceitful.

I think what's important for people who are Christian is whether or not they are trying to become more like Jesus and regularly take an honest assessment of themselves and their lives.

Jesus honored the old testament scriptures, he preached them, he believed them. Being more like Jesus is to do the same.

From my own mind, regardless if you are straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transexual, or anything else, you can be a christian and NOBODY can deny you your free will.

I agree, Christ accepts all, but you must repent of your sins and believe. That is the gospel, repent and believe. If the homosexual or the transsexual or the thief or the alcoholic or the abuser of his wife or the murderer or the liar or any other sinner, does not repent or believe he must repent then he is without the gospel and without the gospel you are without Christ. If you are without Christ, even if you call yourself a Christian, you are not one. The term christian has a meaning it is wrong to abuse the word and strip it of what it means to make people feel good about themselves, it is a morally evil abuse of language.

 

[Starling]

I agree with Colorless. From what I know, homosexuality is a BIG sin in the Bible; it is all throughout the Old Testament and I believe it is prevalent in the New Testament as well. The city of Sodom was destroyed by fire and brimstone, sent by God Almighty himself, BECAUSE they practiced homosexuality and sexual immorality.


I believe people are watering down the gospel these days and making it something that it isn't. God loves ALL, that is true, but He HATES sin. He sent his Son to die on the cross in order to spare us from the death caused by sin, so that if we believe and REPENT of our sins, we will be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb and be saved. If you don't do that, and repent, you CANNOT be saved.


This is what the Bible says. Anyone who says homosexuality is okay in God's eyes has not read the Bible thoroughly enough. I've been a Christian for only two years and I know this for sure. God loves you, but not the lifestyle you are engaged in. It says in the Bible that the effeminate and the sexually immoral will NOT enter the kingdom of God. In Leviticus, it clearly states that a man having sex with another man, (and most likely suggesting two women together), are sins. It's in the same pages that describe having sex with an animal as a sin, and that incest is evil.


If you want to be a Christian, consult the Word of God and live by it. Don't listen to people who water it all down. It's a harder lifestyle than you think, but if you want to make it to Heaven, then so be it. If you want to please God, it should not be so hard.


I have met deliverance ministers who have cast homosexual spirits out of people, and they become heterosexual. This is a fact, and I have dealt with demons that have attacked me before in the past when I dabbled in witchcraft (then a non-Christian). (Witchcraft also being a sin in the Bible, which I didn't know!!) I basically ran to the church for help when this got out of hand. I could hear it, touch it, and sometimes see it, it scared the shiznits out of me. Demons are biblical, so it is possible that you may have one, and they do exist, as Jesus cast out many of them. According to Bob Larson, up to 50% of the world can have hidden demons inside of them. My friend, who has been in the ministry for 12 years, know that these homosexual demons are called loas or lwas, that change the gender of the person on the inside when they are still developing. So they have a spirit of a man while being in a woman's body. This is what she's told me, and she's an expert in this.


I am not trying to spread hate, but advise you about what the Bible says. Fornication (sex outside of marriage) is also restricted in the Bible, if you don't know that. If you want to pursue a relationship with God, who I KNOW is real from many many experiences, you MUST NOT SIN! When you sin, you must repent.


I know that it is hard for even Christians not to sin, but they always repent when they do. Even a lie can keep you out of heaven, as it says in the Bible that liars will not inherit the kingdom of God.


So, peace. Repent now; Jesus loves you. I've fallen time and time again, but He has always forgiven me. 
Oh, I just realized that the thread creator hasn't been on since January. I feel like my words were wasted. :/

 

[Sukakun]

Its okay, Starling. People are still reading the thread and hopefully taking the case being presented into mind. And that's really the crux of Christianity. We have very firm commandments, throughout the whole of Scripture, that the original expectation of Adam and Eve have not passed from us - what is known as the Covenant of Works. Adam and Eve were expected to do what God said to do, no questions asked, and failure is death. We're expected to do what God said to do, no questions asked, and failure is death. We will wrestle with this till the day we die. I'm a sinner. I know I'm a sinner. But knowing the truth, I know I'm supposed to flee from those sins, knowing they will be biting my heels every step of the way.


I wish I could go more in depth with this. But really, Starling and Colorless really did outstanding jobs in spelling everything out.

 

[~OneHellofAButler~]

_Just for the record I'm not Christian or anything else but I'm not Atheist either, I just don't care(but that's a different rant for a different time)_


I think this is a situation where it all comes down to what you think. Whether it's a sin or not doesn't even matter in this world today there isn't a person who hasn't committed a sin. Because that's just a part of life. We all make choices, we all make mistakes and we learn. Now what would homosexuality be then? Honestly it's not a mistake it's a choice (Or if you wanna look at this way, "it's how you were born, you were born that way, you can't help it" etc) Is it a bad choice? That's an opinion. I don't think it is (I'm Bisexual). Really people might say it doesn't work, and perhaps it doesn't for them, but that's a decision you have to make for yourself. I think this all depends on what you value the most. And like i mentioned before, Lust, greed, envy and all that happen everyday and have for thousands of years. People lie, cheat and steal and have for thousands of years. Nobody is completely free of sins. So don't let the idea of that hold you back (something I'm still trying to get is why homosexuality is a bigger deal than any of that but eh... I feel like if your gonna complain about one then complain about them all)

 

[Kokino Hu]

Well...at first, I wasn't gonna say anything, but after Zhia posted...Eh, iono. Guess I'd just better.


So. I mean no offense to Christianity; to me, it's actually a really cool thing for a person to be passionate about their religion. If they're intense with it, and it means something to them, then that's really great. It's so awesome to have something so constant with you, especially if/since it makes you happy. However, I believe that no matter who you are or which scriptures you follow, there has got to be a line drawn, somewhere, to indicate what is your business and what is not your business. What someone does with their love life, inside the bedroom or outside of their bedroom; in public or out of public, is not your business.


That kind of thing isn't your business, or the church's business, or the government's business, or Joe Schmoe's business. Nor is it mine. If you're a girl and you kiss your girlfriend, I don't think that's anymore of a sin than if you do the same thing to your boyfriend. Some people like men, some people like women, and "Some People's" gender is irrelevant (in my fervent opinion). It's simply not fair to tell someone they can't be this or that because of what they are, and if you merely say that don't care if it's not fair, then you may want to think about what it feels like to be the suppressed party.


Being homosexual is no walk in the park. Many people seem to forget or ignore that, and I'm not just talking about people who are openly uncomfortable with them. We have a new wave of teenagers on our hands, who, in their effort to make themselves "unique," are convincing others and/or themselves that they're homosexual when they're actually heterosexual. Homosexuality has become something of an irritating fad, and contrary to popular belief, it's not very helpful to actual homosexuals. It makes a genuinely, legitimately gay or lesbian teenager less credible when they come out of the closet. And that's not good. Just like how it's become annoyingly "trendy" to self-harm, it's also become annoyingly "trendy" to maintain interest in the same gender, which doesn't give homosexuality a good name. It steals away credibility, makes the general idea of it more irritating, and all-around does not help. In other words, I'm not trying to say that homosexuality is OK because I find it glamorous.


Actually, I feel like homosexuality is OK because there's nothing that can be done about it. Just so long as you don't hurt anyone, or try to force your sexuality on them, you're innocent. If by the Bible's words you're being sinful, then that's too bad. Because in the very same Bible, it's stated that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding day, she "shall be executed." The thing is, every ancient religious scripture has things that are out-dated in them. I'm not pointing any fingers; it truly can't be helped! They're old, and they're sacred and beautiful enough to stay unchanged. Just like your taste in sexual and romantic desires can't be helped.


Also, there's nothing "inorganic" about being a homosexual. There are animals that are into homosexuality and all. Seriously, there were a gay flamingo couple that legitimately existed. Maybe they still do; I haven't kept up with them. xD But bro, it's pretty natural. It's not a choice and stuff, so...yeah. It's a mental thing.


Listen, I guess I haven't directly answered your question. Sorry. Well, my two cents on it is that if God can't be kind and tolerant with a person for doing something they have no say over--again, so long as nobody gets literally hurt with it--then you shouldn't have to follow that god. Simple as that. If He makes other people happy, then awesome for them! Pretty sweet that they found such salvation. But if you and Him don't have a mutual understanding going on, the you oughtta just forget about it. And if you want to be a Christian anyways, then go right ahead. Whatever makes you happy.


For the record, this is coming from someone who doesn't believe in hell. If there really is such thing as hell, then I have no interest in following God's laws in the first place, since condemning people to eternal agony over making bad choices is just a biiit too grotesquely old-fashioned to me. It's downright cruel. Yeah, there are people in the world who do things that are absolutely unforgivable, but if you're not affecting anyone else in a way that causes them actual pain, you shouldn't be punished for it. Tolerance over everything else any day.


Just don't worry about it~ ^^


(If I sounded like I was attacking anyone at any point in there, then I'm sincerely sorry. I can honestly promise you that being mean wasn't my intention! ^^; )

 

[Melix]

Kokino Hu: From someone still trying to figure themselves out, I thank you. I read those other posts and I must have been depressed for a day and a half. I just keep twisting myself around trying my hardest to figure out what I am- and it genuinely hurts me to hear people tell me that what I'm thinking is wrong or that I should die for what I believe in or that when I do die I'm going to rot in eternal agony.


It is so, so nice to finally hear someone say, "Don't worry about it."


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! 
(And for the record, I'm not one of those teenagers who "decided" they liked people of the same sex because it was trendy. I'm the person who, in third grade, realized the kind of body they actually liked, calmly walked out of their classroom, then immediately burst into tears, ran into the office, and screamed "Help me, I think I'm gay!" After being coddled for an hour, I returned to class and ignored any of that kind of feeling for the next four years with the exception of this one time.


I never told anyone that before. Wow.)

 

[Kokino Hu]

Hiii, Melix! (Didn't think for a moment that you were one of those gay-by-choice teenagers, so no worries there. ^^ ) Well, you're very welcome for whatever help I gave you. owo I dun' think it's fair that some people should have to go through being told to change or else, especially when they're being told to change something that's a very natural asset for them.


But...yeah. Again, I don't mean to point any fingers, but after reading the other posts on here and finding that they were mostly for the "pray away the gay" team, I figured we needed another post for the "you cannot pray away the gay" team. xD And now we have you to back us up on our cozy little side here, too! By the way, in its own fashion, your sexuality realization story is pretty cuuute. o3o It's really sad that you'd have to feel bad and worried about it, but it is kinda adorable~


//bounces off to stalk you for awhile

 

[Desu Juice]

Even though this thread is pretty much dead, I'm still going to post this mainly to throw my opinion out there.


Honestly, the bible was written by a bunch of men that had a different way of thinking about things. Back then, homosexuality was a terrifying thing, not often seen, and was believed to be against nature, mainly because Stage 1 and 2 nations, according to the Demographic Transition Model, believed that children were economic assets, and gay couples could not produce children, therefore they were deemed unnatural.


The Bible was also written a great many month after Christ, therefore quite a bit of information written within its pages is more invalid than recommended for such an important book.


Anywho, God teaches us to love, therefore, I believe that as long as it's true love, or a condition you're born with, being gay is ok, and should not be viewed as something God "hates," because God cannot "hate" something he made mentally possible. Remember, God makes no mistakes. If it is mentally possible, God intended it to exist. He made every synapse in our brain, and stemming from that, every mental condition. Whether these are challenges he intended for us to best to prove our faith, or just things that are the results of evolution, they were made to exist. The latter means that he created them to show us that love is love, no matter what form it's in.


And also another important point I'd like to make, is that times are changing, and God can see that. Things that were completely unacceptable back then, are things that we don't even notice now. This means that this was obviously intended as humanity grows in age, and God cannot blame us if we are raised in such a world and led to believe and think things that would have been taboo back then.


As stated above, homosexuality can be something you are born with, and can be caused by having more x chromosomes than y, or vise versa, or even having both sets of genetellia. Homosexual "demons" may exist, but sometimes, you are scientifically, and inevitably, homosexual.