Bull of the North Stats & Forces

[Persell]

It's been mentioned in the other thread, so I thought I'd mention it here- any suggestiions as to the Bull & his circle's current stats?


Also assuming that he manages to get the Haltans to form a reluctant alliance treaty with him- what would you estimate as the size and make-up of his forces?


Danke!

 

[Guard]

I don't think I can make a good guess about the actual size of his army but I do have an idea about his personal force.I'd like to remind you that he slays a sapphire circle spell caster Sidereal with a single arrow.


I realize that one Sidereal should not present a real match for a Dawn caste Solar and the ability to cast a second circle spell-Canata of Empty Voices in that case- has nothing to do with actual combat capacity.But still these the two sidereals are sent over there to stop the Bull's advances by Bronze Faction.It's a fact that even the least Sidereal sent for such a mission is something on his own right.We don't have a clue that relates to their direct combat power but combined altogether it all means something right?I also feel like that he kills said sidereal with a single arrow at first sight altough I must admit that it's an impression I got when I first read the text in the book Kingdom of Halta.


I think it sheds some light on Yurgen's stats.At least he knows how to slay a Sidereal with a single arrow.[/i]

 

[StarHawk]

The Dawn Caste book had the Bull's stats. I don't remember if they're only starting stats or 150exp stats. Either way they're something to work off of. The rest of his circle though don't have published stats that I've found. But I remember his twilight buddy has solar circle sorcery and is pretty capable without the bull's help in a fight. But beyond that I'm not much help either.

 

[Guard]

It seems to me that the word horde means anything an author or a storyteller needs to beat the hell out of a dynastic legion.


That's why I think the size of his ıcewalker horde means little compared to his own power and to the power of his circle.I'd say that what makes him win those battles is not the actual number of warriors he has but it's the tactical genius behind his campaign.


Now that the Bronze refuses to meddle into this war I can think of few powers that can stop the Bull threat.But we don't know how long will it take for the Bronze faction to quit turning a blind eye to his doings.

 

[Persell]

Based on what informatin is available, I'm personally inclined to think that the Bull may be more heavily focussed on some of the Presence and command-type charms than being a pure out and out combat beast.  It would explain in part how he is able to recruit so effectively.  Any idea for actual stats or the like?


We know Samea was a frighteningly adept sorceress at the beginning of the campaign and can assume she has only advanced from there.


But what about the rest of his circle?  Who are they what do we know of their capabilities?  Fear Eater and Nalla Blood Axe are documented in KoH as having lead an entire arm of his forces rather effectively.  What castes are they?


Any ideas?

 

[Persell]

Okay- so if the Bull as a randomly sized horde- do we have a sense of the size of the Tepet Legion that the Bulls forces destroyed?


At this point I would assume his forces are stonger than ever.  They would have Halta as a reluctant ally- and likely the vast majority of the Icewalker tribes on board.  The Haslanti League has got to be in an all out panic.

 

[Guard]

. But I remember his twilight buddy has solar circle sorcery and is pretty capable without the bull's help in a fight.

I wonder where did you get that information that Samea is able to cast Solar Circle Sorcery.As far as I know she only initiated herself in celestial circle sorcery.

 

[Guard]

The Haslanti League has got to be in an all out panic.

Well they are!In fact they have every right to be in panic.Bastions of the North tells that Haslanti League fears that one day the Bull may return to his homeland in an attempt to bend the league to his will.They also fear that when the day comes they won't have enough military power to stop him and it is obvious that they can't turn to the Realm to seek help like the Linowans did.If the battle for Haslanti ever happens it will be inevitable for the Bull to clash arms and teeth with some real powerful Lunars.The origins of the Haslanti are proof enough.


----------------------------------Spoiler for anyone who hasn't yet read In Northern Twilight but wants to read anyway-------------------------------


In the third fiction book called In Northern Twilight we see icwalkers led by Samea using an iceboat.This might be proof enough that Haslanti may not hold technological upper hand when it comes to the Bull since he seems to have everything he needs.


We're also told by Samea herself that Yurgen's main command center is called Hold a stylish barbarian castle of some sort and that it was a holy place like a temple dedicated to Yu-Shan and probably to the Unconquered Sun.It is now guarded by the two celestial lions that we know from Kingdom of Halta-the ones that fought with Bull's circle against the Tepet Legion.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay- so if the Bull as a randomly sized horde- do we have a sense of the size of the Tepet Legion that the Bulls forces destroyed?

I doubt it's larger than a standart legion.Given the current status of the military finances back at the Blessed Isle we can even assume it to be smaller than a real legion up to the Scarlet Empire's standarts.If I remember the specifics presented in the Dragon-Blooded corebook it all amounts to something between 5000 and 7000 men included all the staff necessary to keep the legion moving on.Though I'm not one hundred percent sure of this info.


The size may in fact vary but one thing can be said of the Tepet legion.I don't think it will ever attempt to get on his way once again.That is unless we have Tepet Arada or our new candidate for the scarlet throne that aspect of wood Tepet Ejava getting the tepet military up to his feet and marching against him in an overly dramatic fashion.Or a player to be more precise :wink:


I don't either think that he's a combat monster otherwise why trouble himself with strategies and so forth?He would simply stride into the field and smash the Dragon-Bloods to the ground.That's why I agree with


Eldred's assumption of charm selection but I'd still say that he can fight like a monster when there's need.We can't ignore the fact that he slays a Sidereal that easily.He also marched with his army on the battlefield once.I don't recall the name of the battle correctly but it did end up with a shadowland and Iors Malden deserting his mentor's army.


By the way Bull of the North is represented as a 4th level mentor.

 

[Persell]

With regard to the notion that the Bull will have to contend to Lunars if he challenges the Haslanti, I'm not convinced that's true.


Granted the League was founded by Lunar (Gerd Marrow Eater), but the material also says that he has grow a bit bored with the Leauge as a pet project.  


My personal feeling is that perhaps the Lunars will let the Haslanti fall.  They founded and protected the League as a middle ground between tribal life and civilization.  If the League has grown too soft to defend itself- grown too weak, perhaps they will feel it's time for the Haslanti to fall.  Given the Luanr attitude toward cities and the weakness of nations and the like, I think this is a reasonable possibility.


Anyone have an alternate perspective?


And to stay on topic, what about potential stats for the Bulls Circle?  Anyone up for coming up with stats by consensus on the board here?

 

[Silence In Daylight]

. But I remember his twilight buddy has solar circle sorcery and is pretty capable without the bull's help in a fight.

I wonder where did you get that information that Samea is able to cast Solar Circle Sorcery.As far as I know she only initiated herself in celestial circle sorcery.

 Remember, in one of the caste book prefaces, where Yurgen and Samea go and take out a deathknight while blowing away a shadowland? That spell is likely the shadowland-destroying Solar Circle spell given in Bone and Ivory.

Now that the Bronze refuses to meddle into this war I can think of few powers that can stop the Bull threat.But we don't know how long will it take for the Bronze faction to quit turning a blind eye to his doings.

 The BF only declined to commit more Siddies to assist the Tepet legions after Yurgen slew one, leaving them to their destruction. There is no indication that they will not interfere in the future--this time, a lot better prepared.

I don't think I can make a good guess about the actual size of his army but I do have an idea about his personal force.I'd like to remind you that he slays a sapphire circle spell caster Sidereal with a single arrow.

 So, he has a perfect Archery attack charm, and likely the Archery version of Fire and Stones Strike (auto damage buyer). Personally, I think that the Siddie botched a defense roll somewhere.

And to stay on topic, what about potential stats for the Bulls Circle?  Anyone up for coming up with stats by consensus on the board here?

 Other than Essence 5 across the board?

 

[Persell]

Well, I'm not even certain that they ALL need Essence 5 across the board.  Samea and Jurgen certainly, but I think the others may be a bit more modest- especially in light of the fact that they are afterall allowing themselves to be sublimated to the will of the Bull.  


I also wonder perhaps whether or not Samea isn't the real force behind the Bull's crusade with Jurgen as little more than a figurehead.  Sames is described as a first among equals within the circle and she has the powerhouse sorcery to move them forward.  She is more devoted to the North than the Bull.  She is a Zenith after all...maybe the Bull is in some respects the poster boy- or face that Samea is willing to use in her crusade to purify and unite the North.  


Admittedly I think the Bull is too strong willed to be used in such a way (if he realizes it), but it does seem an interesting possibility.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Well, Yurgen doesn't even need to be just a figurehead; he can be the Exalted King come once again, as long as Samea can keep him on her path. As long as their goals coincide, no problems.


 Thing is, where do their goals differ? And what will happen when push comes to shove?

 

[The Mad hatter]

well the Bull of the North from the Dawn book seems pretty combat oranted in his charms, from what ive gathered he hasnt really gathered people with stirring speechs but more of the fact hes nearly invenurable in their eyes so i dont think hed see much reson to steer away from that since he seems to not like the idea of being the leader all that much,


also he dosent excatly strike me as all that bright......


and yes he would need high charms for archery, he took out a sidreal, lets discount the fact it was a praticner of Celestial Circle sorcery and just rember it was a fraggin sidreal! they may not have the best Ox-Body charms out there, but they tend towards being the type you only hit when they want you to or they are low on essence and are exausted

 

[Persell]

True- as stat'ed in Cbawn, Jurgen is a combat machine, but you'll note that they did go out of their way to give him a very significant Performance score (4 or 5) if I recall- and that's on a starting character- so whether or not the charms bear it out, I think the intention was there to skew him a bit toward a Cult of Personality figure.


Samea has no stats to speak of, but we know she was an Icewalker and has Solar Circle Sorcery.  She seems to perhaps be the more subtle of the two and to have a clearer sense of the big picture.--As a side note, how do they manage to keep the superstitious barbarians from revolt when Samea is summoning 2nd circle demons on such a regular basis?


Any thoughts on the others?  Raneth of Diamond Hearth is listed as a circle member, as is Nalla Bloodaxe of Whitewall.  Others I have heard mentioned include Fear Eater and Crimson Antler.  Does anyone know anything about them?  I've begun fleshing out some ideas about Bloodaxe for my own game, but I'd greatly appreciate imput from the folks here.

 

[Persell]

His charisma and manipulation are both 4 and his performance is 5. If that doesn't give a clue of where the character is going I don't know what does. Yes, he has 5 in archery as well but he can do two things at once.

 

[Kajata]

You gotta bear in mind that, if he's leading Barbarian tribes, he's got to have combat skill, they're just not going to accept him otherwise.  He may be a leader, but that's not the same as a leader in most other nations.   He has to lead half by example and half by courageous speachifying, and so, he's gotta be at least competant in combat as well as being good at talking.

 

[Forn Clakes]

You gotta bear in mind that, if he's leading Barbarian tribes, he's got to have combat skill, they're just not going to accept him otherwise.  He may be a leader, but that's not the same as a leader in most other nations.   He has to lead half by example and half by courageous speachifying, and so, he's gotta be at least competant in combat as well as being good at talking.

Agreed.  I feel that a barbarian leader must be able to defend him/herself against any who would wish to usurp him/her.


~FC.

 

[Guard]

If I remember correctly Samea was performing some sort of ritual which doesn't necessarily have to be a spell.I also remember that she performed this ritual with the aid of an artifact or a heartstone sort of thing.Why I do not agree that she's a solar circle sorcerer is that she never cast one before!If the ritual stuff isn't my imagination    than she may or may not have solar sorcery.Also the spell Cleansing Solar Flames from the Book of Bone and Ebony is published a very long time after that shadowland purifying story.As a side note I've never seen her practicing any other solar sorcery in either Kingdom of Halta or In Northern Twilight.But you may still be right about her being a solar circle sorcerer  :?


The Bull didn't strike me as a clever leader neither when I first read the Castebookawn.He was still trying to clear his head and to get along with his newfound powers.People were looking to him as if he could do anything and everything but he wouldn't believe in himself and so on..Remember the lady from the Blackwater Mammoth Tribe who asked Bull to bless her child so that he would beceome one like him one day..


But since he's the tactical instinct behind all the battles against the Linowan and against Tepet I must admit that he's not what he seems to be.When I read about him In Northern Twilight I did get the feeling that he's acting as a straight barbarian near the Icewalkers in the middle of a feast and as a cold and brilliant general when he's around the tactics table.


Finally I fear that the day will come when Samea and Bull will no longer be friends or the day that their paths will stray one from another..

 

[Guard]

No matter what happens it will happen by the secret hand of Great Curse.: :evil:  .Not that I'm a fan of the great curse but that it's a fan  of Solars :twisted:


Anyway about the other ones:


We don't have any stats about them so I think we'll have to work them out from scratch.


I'll pick Fear Eater for a beginning since I already used him in one of my games:


He sounds like a demon to me :twisted: The kind of Solar who fights like a demon and who can smile at the face of the mightiest of the foes.The kind that tells jokes about his adventures with ladies when he drinks a lot .We're told that he also leads bodies of troops right into the field in the face of actual combat.I don't know how old he is but at least I'll expect him to be as hardened as Yurgen himself.Since he's the one taking charge on the field and he's the one responsible for the lives of others -be it friends or enemies-and also he's the one Yurgen turns to when he wants his orders carried out onto the field He should be rally able to control himself under a lot of real combat stress.


His name implies to me that he colours his face when he's going to a battle and that he can really look like a demon when he's looking into your eyes. I think there's a reason for him to be called Fear Eater right?He should be striking fear into the hearts of his enemy and he should certainly know how to make good use of any moral breach in his enemies ranks.He should take advantage of this and bolster the courage of his troops with the very courage that he's cost to his enemy.


Speaking ingame terms I think it all went down to this:


High physical attributes.Strength:4 Dexterity:3 and Stamina:4.


At least two Dawn abilities at 4-5 with a likely melee score of 5


When I used him in my game he had an ornate orichalchum grand daiklave and we had an encounter scene with him like this:


The circle inhales:


The group meets with him on the icy wastes of the northern tundra.Fear Eater approaches them.And I mean it when I say he approaches them.A giant of a man he is, his cold and dark silhouette seems waving in the blinding snowstorm.He marches confident and proud.With each step he defeats another wave of searing cold wind and crashes the dead bodies of his long gone enemies under his feet deep into the ground under the snow so that they'll remain there.He doesn't just move his body he moves the storm out of his way.A towering and impressive figure he reaches now the rocky field where the circle stands.Comes to them as if he will not stop ice-walking.Just when he seems he will crush them like an ice titan he stops his arctic body thunderously near them.Towers above them.His dark body covered up with furs and numerous trophies from numerous-exaggerated tales about him-hunts.


After a brief and tense encounter one of the pcs-the player of the zenith if I recall correctly-asks him his name..There's a sharp pause here as if even the wind stops shouting out of deep respect and curiosity.The beastlike man stops breathing.And then he speaks in a deep voice that sounds like the century-long movements of the glaciers as sharp and cold as the grand daiklave hanging from his back.


He asks:"Which one of us you address to?" meanwhile he looks back over his shoulder.One could here bones and muscles grinding against each other if one listens carefully.A hint of a wicked smile appears on his leather hard face when he points his daiklave.


And then right after this display of open courtesy he says in a tone more human-like and more monotone:"Does no matter!They call both of us the same"


The circle exhales ...for a moment that seems like eternity he laughs with a voice resembling an avalanche of snow and ice.


Unfortunately the game didn't last long and I'll try to go into as much detail as I can remember:


Virtues:


Compassion:3(he never was reluctant to harm his enemy after all it's his enemy.He was fond of whom he considered his allies)


Temperance:3(He was never short of temper since he had remain calm at the face of danger)


Conviction:2(Well,there is Bull.And he's right about his dreams and ideals.I'll do my best.I'll follow him)


Valor:4(Did I say he was laughing all the time :lol: )


Nature:Bravo


Concept:Bull's right hand


The daiklave he carried was a fourth level artifact that I designed for him.It was called Fear Eater.It would let him bolster the valor of his own unit when the enemy unit faltered in his valor.It was purposely designed to fit into mail and steel system.In game terms whenever the enemy fails a valor roll Fear Eater would channel 6 motes into the fear eater and thus increases the fatigue point of his unit by one.(see page 229 Players Guide for more details on unit fatigue rules)


He had good stats at leading man.He was really suited for mail and steel with a moderate charisma based dice pool.He had good performance and presence,second only to the Bull.As I said earlier he was good at different sorts of weapon.Melee and thrown being his favorites.He had endurance:5 in order to resist the worst of the norhern weather and to resist fatigue effects when the battle lasts too long.His endurance score was followed by his resistance of 4.He could ride elk meaning that he had ride:3.


That's all I can remember for the moment

 

[Guard]

I found out the text which mentions that Samea casts a spell to drive the shadowland back to the underworld.It certainly is a spell.It's not some kind of artifact or heartstone power.So she's really a solar circle sorcerer isn't she?I would be figuring out ways to liquidate Samea rather then the Bull if I were a bronze faction agent.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Oh, I'm sure that the BF would love to do so. A bit more difficult to execute than to plan, though...


 First off, there's Samea herself. Solar Circle sorcerer, apparently with access to some more than decent spells. Plus, she's likely to have a reasonably solid defensive charm assortment, plus a nifty artifact or three.


 Second, Yurgen tends to be nearby.


 Third, the rest of their Circle, plus two celestial lions that serve as her personal bodyguards.


 Lastly, even though the Gold Faction may not approve of such, um, unsupervised and puissant Solars running amok (and have contingency plans to attempt to remove them should they become more than a regional threat), Ura and her advisors must realize how much of a resource drain Yurgen and company are on the Bronze Faction. While any overt or covert assistance is unlikely to be forthcoming, hindering a BF Siddie assassination team may be perfectly feasible.

 

[Persell]

I like your write up of Fear Eater Guard, but I was under the impression that the Bull had organized a Perfect Solar Circle.  


If that is true, the Bull himself is the Dawn caste and Fear Eater would have to be either a Twilight, Eclipse or Night Caste.  Am I incorrect on that?

 

[The Mad hatter]

could always be a night cast, i mean with a name like that....

 

[Persell]

Okay well perhaps we can identify castes for the following people:


Nalla Bloodaxe of White Wall


Crimson Antler


Raneth of Diamond Hearth


Fear Eater


I had pegged Nalla as a Night Caste- and a rather self interested one at that.  It is said he abandoned the Whitewall guard to pursue the Bull's promises of epic glory.  It set up a nice dichotomy with Macha Pethisdottir (CB: Dawn) who is still loyal to the city.


I figured perhaps Fear Eater was a Twilight for the Circle- but I have nothing to base that on.


I had to make a wild leap of logic and assume that perhaps Crimson Antler and Raneth of Diamond Hearth were in fact the same person.  That only remaining caste then is Eclipse.


Does anyone here have other information or perspective on the matter?


Danke!

 

[Guard]

Eldred wrote:


I like your write up of Fear Eater Guard, but I was under the impression that the Bull had organized a Perfect Solar Circle

You may be right.Back then, I didn't have a clue that he had organized a perfect circle :? .Anyway the reason I have chosen him to be a Dawn Caste Solar Exalted is that I figured that Bull needed a battlefield unit leader other than Iors Malden.That's why I arranged him to be Dawn casteSolar.


Well it doesn't matter what I did with my game right now.


About Raneth of Diamond Heart:Well the name clearly suggests that she is from a city right?I mean she's the closest of the two remaining ones to be an eclipse caste.That is if the two are different persons.


Crimson Antler on the other hand sounds lie a more tribal name to me.If thisCriomson Antler is not a tribal shaman of one of the ıcewalker tribes then I think we have Raneth as our eclipse.Haslanti League should be very pleased to find out that a Solar just slipped away from them just to join the Bull.Perhaps she's trying to convince Bull that he has to stay away from Haslanti-at least for now.


As for the Crimson Antler I can't help but get the feeling that she's some sort of fighter too.It's all about names though.I do not imlply that she's another Dawn caste which will be irrelevant since we're trying make a perfect circle but that she knows how to fight.She's from an elk tribe that's for granted.She might be a hunter or a scout which might exalt her into the night caste.She might also be a town witch or a tribal shaman.In that case she might be a twilight.