Building better Infernals

[8 Drunken Gods]

For those of you who didn't catch my previous Infernals topic:


http://patternspider.net/exalted/f ... highlight=


 The question, whether one thinks Akuma or Infernal Exalted should be allowed as PCs?


 If yes, should there be a standard creation system?


 Curious yet?  See the former link to add to that discussion.


 This ladies and gents has to do with what we think; unofficially of course; the Infernals should be.


 A discussion of charms and other advantages.  The unique sorcery,  which the former masters of creation have empowered their mortal tools with.  How these heretics use their knowledge of the great curse ( those who are aware of it I mean) to their advantage, as well as what other means the fallen primordials use to control their unique exalted.  This is all just for starters ladies and gentlemen.


 Are we having fun yet?


 Lets talk demons.

 

[Flagg]

I'd say that they should be made like normal Exalts of their type, with increased Abilities and Background points to reflect their powerful patronage.


DBs, Sidereals and Abyssals (if you let them be Infernals) would be virtually unchanged, since they'd just be trading one ridiculously powerful source of training and Artifacts for another.


Solars and Lunars would get +5 Ability points (for example) and 10-15 Background points.


-S

 

[Joseph]

I think they'd use pretty much the same chargen system as loyalist Abyssals for backgrounds.  The Deathlords are RIDICULOUSLY wealthy and powerful, so I assume loyalist Abyssal chargen represents the reasonable upper limit on what an Exalt should begin with.  I say this should be regardless of what "type" of Infernal you are; the Yozis are should be more than capable of giving Terrestrials and Lunars the little "boost" they need to catch up during chargen compared to normal Exalts of the type, which justifies them starting out with the same number of charms and having the same bp cost as other Infernals.


Infernals would probably also have a few additional/different backgrounds, like Infernal command to have an army of cultists and First Circle Demons.

 

[riven5]

The Yozi are capable of infiltrating the bodies of demons directly below them in the chain, from what I recall.  Perhaps they could do something similar with the Infernal Exalted.  The Whispers background could be a good reference point, though perhaps a more hands-on approach would be better.  Perhaps the Infernals could actually call upon the aid of their Yozi masters in a dire circumstance...perhaps giving them boosted abilities and additional charms for a short time, based on which Yozi they call on for assistance.  Indeed you could form an entirely new trait on that alone:  Which Yozis they swear allegiance too, and what benefits each pledge gives them.  The more Yozis they serve, the more powerful they become, but the less freedom they ultimately have.  Kind of like a variation/combination of Liege and Whispers.


For example, you'd get a number of Allegiance points equal to your perm. essence.  You could then distribute these points into the selection of Yozi masters (Kimberry, Ebon Dragon, etc).  You could put them all into one, or split them between multiple masters.  However, doing so effectively makes you either a slave to many, or a greater slave to one.  Then you could "summon" a Yozi masters consciousness (or a fragment of it so as to not destroy your pitiful Exalted essence) a certain number of times per series...we'll say every time your limit reaches a certain point, perhaps using the Great Curse as a medium for the transaction.


Each Yozi would then give benefits to attributes and abilities, as well as make available the use of unique charms and sorceries based on what level of allegiance you have with them.  Perhaps Kimberry could grant a bonus to the Sail ability, as well as granting some of the sorceries available to the Akuma from B&S.  Perhaps the Ebon Dragon could grant a bonus to larceny and stealth, as well as charms that permit you to escape any prison, or evade any would-be captors.


Just a thought.

 

[ashenphoenix]

The Yozi are capable of infiltrating the bodies of demons directly below them in the chain, from what I recall.  Perhaps they could do something similar with the Infernal Exalted.

That would be so cool. The whole Agent Smith thing with demon-cultist Thaumaturges. And Thralls.


Rather than Whispers, I'd relate it to Cult - the same way that Thralls work in D:tF.


Damn, all my Infernalism-related stuff's at one of my player's houses. fuckety-fuck-fuck.


Wait. The Infernals are supposed to lose Autonomy really quickly, right?


What if their Autonomy rating was inversly tied to their essence (little "e"). The number of Thralls (Cult) they have will then increase their Autonomy recovery. They can then lose autonomy by expending essence (including using charms to jump to Thralls-in-need).


Loverly little balancing act between getting thralls by promising power, losing Autonomy by using charms.


Another thought is that I could maybe translate the Wraith: the Oblivion rules for the Shadow into Exalted, and that could represent the Whispers/Cult background. Then Pathos would be equivalent to Essence, Thralls could be Fetters and...


ooooohhhhh......


Am so going to do that in the next few days. Make infernals based on the Shadowguiding in Wraith.


They are so fucked, but going to be so much fun!

 

[Flagg]

Has anyone tried playing an Exalt who wasn't an Infernal, but carried a tainted shard?


I've always thought that it would have interesting possibilities.


-S

 

[8 Drunken Gods]

Has anyone tried playing an Exalt who wasn't an Infernal, but carried a tainted shard?
I've always thought that it would have interesting possibilities.


-S

Nope.  But I've definately made an NPC who's tainted shard is a major plot device!

 

[Jakk Bey]

Had a player who took that as a Flaw, and it worked out nicely. Considering that the Akuma literature has the Shard being tainted for another two incarnations, it is quite a tasty bit of fun to inject into a storyline. Whispers in the night and dreams haunted by the deeds done, the voice of the Yozi always beckoning...

 

[Quchu]

The Yozi are capable of infiltrating the bodies of demons directly below them in the chain, from what I recall.  Perhaps they could do something similar with the Infernal Exalted.  The Whispers background could be a good reference point, though perhaps a more hands-on approach would be better.  Perhaps the Infernals could actually call upon the aid of their Yozi masters in a dire circumstance...perhaps giving them boosted abilities and additional charms for a short time, based on which Yozi they call on for assistance.  Indeed you could form an entirely new trait on that alone:  Which Yozis they swear allegiance too, and what benefits each pledge gives them.  The more Yozis they serve, the more powerful they become, but the less freedom they ultimately have.  Kind of like a variation/combination of Liege and Whispers.

I apologize if I got things wrong, I haven't read B&S yet and just started reading Games of Divnity, because I have a heartburn.


How about... Infernals' castes are decided by which Yozi they serve? Then, wouldn't their caste power be like what's been said above?

 

[riven5]

The Yozi are capable of infiltrating the bodies of demons directly below them in the chain, from what I recall.  Perhaps they could do something similar with the Infernal Exalted.  The Whispers background could be a good reference point, though perhaps a more hands-on approach would be better.  Perhaps the Infernals could actually call upon the aid of their Yozi masters in a dire circumstance...perhaps giving them boosted abilities and additional charms for a short time, based on which Yozi they call on for assistance.  Indeed you could form an entirely new trait on that alone:  Which Yozis they swear allegiance too, and what benefits each pledge gives them.  The more Yozis they serve, the more powerful they become, but the less freedom they ultimately have.  Kind of like a variation/combination of Liege and Whispers.

I apologize if I got things wrong, I haven't read B&S yet and just started reading Games of Divnity, because I have a heartburn.


How about... Infernals' castes are decided by which Yozi they serve? Then, wouldn't their caste power be like what's been said above?

An interesting idea.  However, there are WAY more than five Yozis in Malfeas.  Plus although the coming Infernals book may prove me wrong, I am under the impression that the Infernal Exalted maintain their castes and/or aspects to some degree.  After all, it specifically notes Dukantha (our only Infernal example to date) as being of the former aspect of water.  Whether that means he was totally unmade and remade into something less Dragon-Blooded and more Infernal, I do not know.  However, the fact that they even mentioned his former aspect leaves me to believe some semblance of his former aspect remains.


But I might be totally wrong.

 

[Persell]

However, the fact that they even mentioned his former aspect leaves me to believe some semblance of his former aspect remains.
But I might be totally wrong.

Perhaps, but then don't Deathlords get categorised by their former Caste? And while that does have something to do with their abilities and such, it's not really as defining as it would be for a normal Exalt. I imagine that the former aspect is only there as a point of interest


But then again, I might be wrong

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

However, the fact that they even mentioned his former aspect leaves me to believe some semblance of his former aspect remains.
But I might be totally wrong.

Perhaps, but then don't Deathlords get categorised by their former Caste? And while that does have something to do with their abilities and such, it's not really as defining as it would be for a normal Exalt. I imagine that the former aspect is only there as a point of interest


But then again, I might be wrong

Perhaps, but the Deathlords are in essence, simply incredibly overpowered ghosts of Solar Exalted. As ghosts they lack any form of Caste, save as a basis for what they were good at in life...and thus although their capabilities may show their former caste, they themselves are no longer of such. At least following the Akuma rules found within the Player's Guide, an Infernal Exalt would yet maintaign their Caste, but have been modified to serve their master/masters better. As for the examples in the Lintha book, those I know naught about, as they don't particularly interest me and I've made no effort to aquire it. SO basically, no Deathlords, being ghosts, don't belong to their former caste, and Infernally tainted exalts, at least through the Player's Guide method of Akumafication, do maintaing their previous caste. Now, if some new form of Infernal is crafted from the 50 solar shards in a manner similar to the Abyssals (and remember who TAUGHT the Malfeans THAT trick), it is likely they will have some form of caste that is a shadowed mirror of the Solar castes those shards originally were.

 

[Persell]

Ah yes, for some unknowable reason it slipped my mind that Deathlords are in fact truly bad examples, so ignore my post above abuot the castes of Akuma. Someone postulated that the castes of the Infernals created with the tainted shards would correspond to and be given the names of the Immaculate Texts depictions of the Anathema (The Forsaken instead of Dawn, The Unclean, The Blasphemous etc.)

 

[Quchu]

(The Forsaken instead of Dawn, The Unclean, The Blasphemous etc.)

/me adds something somewhat humorous before someone reminds me that I lack brains.


What about DBs and Sidereals? Or... if they can be tainted, Alchemicals?

 

[Andrew02]

Or... if they can be tainted, Alchemicals?

Soulsteel ones can. Or, at least, it's something potential that the First and Forsaken Lion could pull off. I believe it involved Gremlin Syndrome somehow.


And how do you survive in Kansas City if you don't speak English?

 

[ashenphoenix]

[What about DBs and Sidereals? Or... if they can be tainted, Alchemicals?

The Alchemicals can indeed be tainted. One of the scenarios presented E:tAu talks about The First and Forsaken Lion (yes, that's right - a Deathlord) does it.

 

[Quchu]

And how do you survive in Kansas City if you don't speak English?

Lotta guns and knives, violent driving skills, and an overpaid lawyer.

The Alchemicals can indeed be tainted. One of the scenarios presented E:tAu talks about The First and Forsaken Lion (yes, that's right - a Deathlord) does it.

I think Deathlords tainting Soulsteels and Yozis tainting Alchemicals are different matters, because Soulsteels have their connection to Oblivion and whatnot... also FFL used underworld Essence to taint Soulsteels, don't they?


(I should get to read the Engine of Extinction...)


The reason why I wondered if Alchemicals are capable of becoming Infernals is because they have Primordial Essence unlike other Exalts...

 

[ashenphoenix]

And how do you survive in Kansas City if you don't speak English?

Lotta guns and knives, violent driving skills, and an overpaid lawyer.

It also helps if you're lawyer speaks your language - I'm assuming...

The Alchemicals can indeed be tainted. One of the scenarios presented E:tAu talks about The First and Forsaken Lion (yes, that's right - a Deathlord) does it.

I think Deathlords tainting Soulsteels and Yozis tainting Alchemicals are different matters, because Soulsteels have their connection to Oblivion and whatnot... also FFL used underworld Essence to taint Soulsteels, don't they?


(I should get to read the Engine of Extinction...)


The reason why I wondered if Alchemicals are capable of becoming Infernals is because they have Primordial Essence unlike other Exalts...

Erm, FFL doesn't just get the Soulsteels, he taints many different ones AFAIR.


Also (apparently) Soulsteel was around before the Underworld, because Autochthon got all pissy about a bunch of Greys (aliens) trying to make a better battery.


Thinkin', the Yozi - with their access to the vast corrupting power that was their originally, should have much trouble deciding that a piddley little exalted were thiers - especially with the Gods being distracted playing gameboy an' all that.

 

[ashenphoenix]

I've got a few ideas as to how stuff might work:

• There seem to be several kinds of demonic pawns - Infernalists (thaumaturges who use demon-summoning and binding), Infernals (Solar essences that got traded by the Deathlords to the Yozi) and Akuma (unquestioning slaves who voluntarily sold at least part of their souls).
  
• Infernals can become Akuma (same way Nephandi souls were inverted).
  
• Akuma are basically functions of their masters - in the same way lesser demons are.

This may apply to Infernals instead of Akuma - due to the involunatry nature of their arrangement. It's how I envisage Limit working.


Obviously - while a Yozi is pretty omnipotent - they're kinda stuck in Malfeas, which makes it hard to communicate with your loyal servant without creating a disturbance in the loom of fate.


The solution?


Bind a minor soul (demon) into your servant.


An Infernal has a war going on inside his head - the same way Oblivion whispers to ghosts. The demon inside an Infernal can still use charms, but it's essence (the Infernal's limit) is a function of how bad the Infernal has been (duh - because it recovers Essence and Willpower whenever the Infernal caters to its desires).


Now - if an ST was running for a circle of 5 Infernal, it would get really difficult for the ST to play demons as well as the rest of the NPC cast, and tell a story.


The solution?


Each player plays his/her character and the demon-soul of another character (changed each session to avoid "conventient" exploitation of this arrangement).


The player of the demon-soul makes life hell offers enticements to the Infernal in order to totally claim the Infernal's soul - raising their permanent[/i] limit to 10. It does this through the use of it's charms, and being able to add dice (up to the character's temporary Limit, and the demon's skill pool) to the character. Any 1's rolled on these demon-dice add one to the character's temporary limit. If temporary limit exceeds the character's temporary Willpower, the character is temporarily taken over by the demon, which can act as it wishes. If the demon commits acts to increase the character's limit they are added to temporary limit as normal. Once the temporary limit reaches 10, a dot of permanent limit is accrued.


The only way for an Infernal to lose limit is to transfer some temporary limit to a Cultist. This transfer creates a pact - temporarily gifting the Cultist with the ability use one of the Demon's charms (that it can afford with the limit).


If the Infernal dies with a pact unfulfilled the Yozi tries to claim the Infernal's soul. The Infernal can (with the correct Charm-type-thingy) attempt to possess the Cultist - stealing his body. This increases the Infernal's Permanent limit by 1 each time.


Feedback please!

 

[Andrew02]

Also (apparently) Soulsteel was around before the Underworld, because Autochthon got all pissy about a bunch of Greys (aliens) trying to make a better battery.

Just a quibble, but wasn't it because they were trying to make something that would allow them to command Autochton?

 

[ashenphoenix]

That may have been a small part of their plan.


I mean, I don't understand why he got so pissy. It's not like they were trying to make him do hard stuff.


No-fun overgods, never wanting to share!

 

[Quchu]

It also helps if you're lawyer speaks your language - I'm assuming...

He doesn't speak Korean, but he speaks Australian, which suffices.

I mean, I don't understand why he got so pissy. It's not like they were trying to make him do hard stuff.
No-fun overgods, never wanting to share!

I figured the Greys were trying to remove Auto's mind and use his remains as a huge battery?


If my pet rock tried to do that to me, I would be angry and throw him out the room window.

 

[Persell]

I've never been a fan of the shadowguiding process, as it tends to interrupt the flow of play, even when the players are doing it well. It would, I imagine, also detract from the overshadowing worry players should have when playing Infernals. Knowing that a fellow player controls your nasty side means in general eveyone will try and at least play the demon side a little nicer than they perhaps could or should, simply because otherwise they might get screwed over if they push things too far. Far better to have sweating and worried players realise that the demonic whispers background works both ways, as they find their memories being plundered, skills go missing and the like as other exalts of their demon masters require a temporary boost to their skills.. this would obviously have to be done carefully so as not to annoy players, but perhaps some kind of limit break system revolving around the amount of demonic essence the exalt channels could be used. Once the limit break is reached, an ability goes missing for a time or access to the charms for that ability get temporarily relocated. The discussion above mentioned the interesting idea of bleeding off limit by investing demonic essence in to a cult/follower to allow them to use charms, which again works in to the corruption idea/aspect of infernals.


Exaltation-wise, much like the deathlords, the Malfeans could either exalt a normal mortal with a tainted shard, or else taint the shard of an existing exalt. Whilst their are already mechanics in place for tainting (and I think the liege background idea would work best, granting players BPs to spend in exchange for portions of their souls), another aspect could also be used. Whilst I'm sure not everyone likes the idea of the Forest Witches, the existence/creation of the Numens in particular prompted an interesting twist to the norm. Having something cut away and being reshaped in to another form certainly fits with infernal exaltation, and allowing access to spirit/virtue-based charms in exchange for effectively a merit/flaw system of pox/blight etc (i'm sure you see where I'm going) would create slightly alien exalts. The transformation process also notes how DBs lose some of their connection to their element (anima banner loss etc). Whilst it also does note that for other (celestial) exalts, their shard flees from the body once its given to the mist, perhaps the Malfeans have refined the technique and been able to keep the shard trapped with the twisted shell of the infernal (which doesnt necessarily have to look demonic, or may know charms to hide their true nature).


Given the existence of the Black Scale Embassy in the Sea of Mind, this idea also kinda works canonically with some (very broad) lateral extrapolation.


Just my thoughts and ideas.

 

[ashenphoenix]

See I'd argue the "flow of play" thing.


Shadowguiding makes a story more character-driven, as it is about their internal torment, which fits with Infernals. I'm not sure how well it would fit for Exalted in general, however. An incredible feat of self-control just doesn't have the shiney-flashy that Bleeding Holy Symbols or Flame-wreathed characters do. Then again, all that stuff could be accomplished with Demon Spirit Charms (Thorns), and could work quite well.


I know having an infernal in a mixed group would likely be a pain, but having a circle? Not so much. And that "you'll be nice to them so they are nice to you" so never happens. If it does, inspire the shadow/demon-guide an extra XP based on how well they did.


Compared with something like E:tFF or even E:tS, having a shadowguide around wil be a piece of cake. Compared with Solars, Abyssals, Lunars or DBs, they may be complicated, but thy're beings under the direct control of the Primordials. "Simple" isn't a word I would associate with such gameplay.


Can you give me a hand with simplifying the system down so it fits better with Exalted mechanics though? I'm kinda stuck on that, particularly with regard to limit/angst/spite being demon essence.