Are enlightened mortals still mortals?

[Jukashi]

On page 218 of the core book, mortals are described as "someone who cannot spend motes of essence to achieve effects". Now, I've always assumed that to not be mortal, for a human, means you need to either be Exalted or have some non-human power in you (such as god-blooded, beastmen, etc.); that is, you needed to have enhanced resilience- resistance to bleeding, half stamina lethal soak and so on - like Exalted do. But in some places it suggests otherwise; in CoCD: The Wyld, for example, on page 111, it says in the sidebar on the Glittering Desert that mortals lose Perception permanently from exposure but that "Essence-users heal the lost Perception as lethal damage".


An enlightened mortal is an essence user and a mortal, so which applies? Exactly how much benefit does an enlightened mortal get beyond simply having a mote pool?

 

[cyl]

Hey... trick question that one...


You could ask the same with most effect that use this distinction between mortal and essence users, or simply states "mortals" (abyssal charms for example).


So there would be 3 types of mortals:


- Extras


- heroic mortals, who are not necessarily essence users


- enlightened mortals who are always supposed to be heroic


I'd be cool with the idea of treating enlightened mortals just as exalts for the purpose of the distinction mortal/essence user and even not include them in the "mortal" category for the purpose of charms working only against mortals.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

I generally go with Enlightened Mortals no longer being affected by such, since they specifically do not meet the requirements according to the Charm Concept Mortals. They've bootstrapped their way into being something more than mere mortals. Of course, they'll have a bitch of a time going against most Exalts, even so, but they are still something special.


And they may even have earned every bit of their power themselves. As far as I'm concerned, that's almost more impressive than any Exalt.

 

[Brickwall]

I'd say that mortals are those who cannot spend motes to acheive effects. Enlightened mortals may do that. Therefore, they are not "mortals" except in name.

 

[syys]

According to Abyssals, ghosts are considered "mortals", even though they can use Essence. It would then make sense that enlightened mortals (who are, if anything, weaker than ghosts) are also counted as "mortals". However, I lean more towards treating the "ghosts are mortals" as an exception which applies only to Abyssal charms, and treating both ghosts and enlightened mortals as non-mortals otherwise.

 

[brennanhawkwood]

According to Abyssals, ghosts are considered "mortals", even though they can use Essence. It would then make sense that enlightened mortals (who are, if anything, weaker than ghosts) are also counted as "mortals". However, I lean more towards treating the "ghosts are mortals" as an exception which applies only to Abyssal charms, and treating both ghosts and enlightened mortals as non-mortals otherwise.

Doesn't that section of Abyssals say that ghosts should be considered "mortals" for the purposes of Abyssal Charms which effect "mortals"? I took that as more of a "we don't want to have to say 'only effects Mortals and ghosts' everywhere so treat them as mortals for these charms" thing than an indication that ghosts are always considered Mortals.

 

[Jukashi]

According to Abyssals, ghosts are considered "mortals", even though they can use Essence. It would then make sense that enlightened mortals (who are, if anything, weaker than ghosts) are also counted as "mortals". However, I lean more towards treating the "ghosts are mortals" as an exception which applies only to Abyssal charms, and treating both ghosts and enlightened mortals as non-mortals otherwise.

If anything, enlightened mortals are actually stronger than ghosts. The only advantage ghosts really have is that they can reach a higher essence rating; enlightened mortals have at least as much variety and potential in terrestrial martial arts as ghosts do with Arcanoi, and enlightened mortals can learn and use Sorcery and thaumaturgy. And there's always the possibility for an enlightened mortal to be Exalted.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Note that ghosts can in fact learn Terrestrial Martial Arts...and even Celestial Martial Arts at Essence 5+. Ghosts, like Gods, Elementals and Demons fall under the Spirit rules as far as Martial Arts are concerned, with access to Terrestrial Martial Arts below Essence 5, The 4 Virtue Styles at Essence 3+ and Celestial Martial Arts in general at Essence 5+. However, Ghosts have access to neither Sorcery nor Necromancy, unless they become Nephwracks, whom can learn Necromancy. Selling out to Oblivion generally isn't worth the gain, to my mind, though. Of course, at least in 1E, not all ghosts were Heroic. So far, lacking the Ghost book, it is unknown whether this remains the case for certain. However, Mother Transgression in the Underworld book follows the rules listed in Scroll of the Monk for Spirits when it comes to Martial Arts.

 

[Jukashi]

Oh? I thought ghosts could know martial arts Charms from life but not use them. Guess they changed it since 1e.

 

[Ker'ion]

Where did they state this little tidbit?


My eee-nterest hast been perkeded...

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Where did they state this little tidbit?
My eee-nterest hast been perkeded...

p. 16, Scroll of the Monk.

 

[Ker'ion]

O.o


Very well, sir.


o_o


Your argument has been justified.


._.


I yield.

 

[syys]

Doesn't that section of Abyssals say that ghosts should be considered "mortals" for the purposes of Abyssal Charms which effect "mortals"? I took that as more of a "we don't want to have to say 'only effects Mortals and ghosts' everywhere so treat them as mortals for these charms" thing than an indication that ghosts are always considered Mortals.

That's the way I would read it, but I think it's not clear. The text says one thing, and the tone implies something else. I don't have Abyssals with me now, but the box (at the beginning of the Charm list) is something along the lines of "in case it is not clear," and "this might be obvious, but" ghosts are treated like mortals for Abyssal charms. It's written like the reader should know this already, not like it's a special exception.

 

[Mr. S]

Do you suppose the Deathlord's "I look at you and you die" thing should work on ghosts?

 

[syys]

I think it's pretty clear from the text that it only applies to those who are alive. Incidentally, enlightened mortals are explicitly said to be treated differently from non-enlightened mortals for the purposes of that power.