Appearance in Social Combat

[Kyeudo]

So, I'm working my way through my fix for social combat and I feel like I've run into a problem. It's not quite a mechanical bug, but more of a bug in the feel of the rules.


Currently, Appearance is the god-stat of social combat, possibly more so than Dexterity is the god-stat of regular combat. Each point is like getting one more automatic success on every social attack and having one more point of social DV. Sure there's a limit to the extent of the effect, but getting around that limit can be almost trivial for some characters (Lunars, I'm looking at you).


The most obvious solution, at least it seemed to me, was to make Appearance operate just like Charisma and Manipulation did, an Attribute to base social attacks relying upon physical appeal around. However, that feels like its encroaching on the "territory" of both Charisma and Manipulation. The two had a nice dichotomy going - either you were being deceitful and thus using Manipulation or you were being honest and using Charisma. If I add Appearance in there, if you are trading on your looks in any way you can throw Appearance in instead of either. Your choice of social attack doesn't force your hand to a particular Attribute.


Am I overthinking this?

 

[Josh the Aspie]

Well first of all, under some interpretations you can be manipulative without being deceitful. If you make a logical argument based on your knowledge of the other person's knowledge, mores, intimacies, this can be manipulation without hiding your intent, or the fact that you are being manipulative.


Using the Socratic method, or several rhetorical questions where you wait for the other to answer are other manipulative methods of argumentation, where you get the person you are talking with to come to a conclusion, or to hem in their options in a debate.


Some would call for a roll using these tactics to be made with manipulation instead of charisma.


But that's not the main body of your question.


I personally like Appearance as it is. Most people, consciously, or unconsciously, give deference to those with superior appearance, or discount the social arguments of those with less appearance. It can lend additional force both to a speech given with charismatic presence, and an attempt at seduction. The phrase "I would listen to her read the phone book", and how well hollywood movies that are empty shells of spectacle do are testaments to the power of appearance on the human psyche.


But at the same time, a bombshell with no social presence or skill at manipulation is very unlikely to talk someone into giving them a discount, or granting them access to a private area to "powder my nose", or even seduce someone that cares a nit about more than looks.


Having appearance play a part in all social combat, but be only one of many factors in any given context where it is used just seems to fit to me.

 

[uteck]

Your only recourse is to do your social attacks via writing.


Exalted is biased on the theory of one universal standard of beauty that applies to all of Creation. It's the only way to explain why everything and anything wants to mate with humans.

 

[Lord Kamina]

You're right but I also think you're re-inventing the wheel...


Have you taken a look at any of the, like... five different custom social combat systems?


Some of them do really nice things with Appearance and perhaps could give you an idea or two.


Also, uteck... Appearance is freakish stat in that it's both a mix of appearance and charisma. It's not only how beautiful but also knowing how to use it.

 

[cyl]

Most rpgs do not have a social combat system.


As I'm thinking about a fix too, if you have any useful references, I would appreciate sharing :wink:


The problem with Appearance is... it's a mix between attractiveness and physical / social awesomeness (and as my signature suggests, we don't charge for either of those :lol: ) and it's a modifier.


What you could do indeed is using it as an attribute like charisma or manipulation, but then you need to determine precisely for what purposes it can be used.


Seduction obviously, but also perhaps for making friends, or anything that represent a more personal aspect of social combat.


The tools for social combat would then be:


Charisma: social tetsubo, you can persuade others through the sheer power of your convictions and your expression. (principles and concepts + raw power of persuasion)


EX: Do it because it's the right thing to do !


Manipulation: sneaky stuff, you can manipulate people into believing that what you are suggesting is their own idea. (brainwashing / NLP)


EX: I'd be you... I would consider the following alternative.


Appearance: adhesion by liking, you're "beautiful", people like you so because they like you, you will have an easier time persuading them and seducing them with your ideas and desires. (adhesion to your personality, intuitu personae, playing on the feelings others have toward you).


EX: do it for me... please ?!


Or something like that.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Some suggested fixes include comparing it to Temperance, rolling temperance, using it only for attack and not defense, among many others...

 

[Kyeudo]

You're right but I also think you're re-inventing the wheel...
Have you taken a look at any of the, like... five different custom social combat systems?


Some of them do really nice things with Appearance and perhaps could give you an idea or two.


Also, uteck... Appearance is freakish stat in that it's both a mix of appearance and charisma. It's not only how beautiful but also knowing how to use it.

I've looked at the few I've found, but the only ones I could find treated Appearance much the same as normal. Do you know where I could find a few more?

 

[Lord Kamina]

That depends on which ones you've read?


Try looking in both exalted wikis, as well as fixalted...

 

[Kyeudo]

Just got done looking over all of the fixes at Fixaled, the official wiki, and the unofficial wiki. Most either use the same rule for Appearance, use Temperance somehow, or ignore Appearance completely.

 

[ThatBlueGuy]

I remember another thread which talked about how you would describe somebody with an Appearance over 5 which turned into a lively chat about Appearance. Somebody in there, I think, either suggested and/or said he replaced Appearance with Composure as written in New World of Darkness.

 

[NateDojo]

I would love to just have it add to both MDVs and all social attacks in person, but that doesn't translate well to written attacks or even make sense in personal interactions.

 

[Lord Kamina]

I would love to just have it add to both MDVs and all social attacks in person, but that doesn't translate well to written attacks or even make sense in personal interactions.

As per RAW, for written attacks you use Linguistics.

 

[NateDojo]

As per RAW, for written attacks you use Linguistics.

I know, which is why adding Appearance to the roll instead of the result would have weird consequences. :/

 

[Captain Hesperus]

I always assumed Appearance was for 'non-verbal' social interactions:


'The gorgeous blonde by the bar has been watching you for over an hour. Gimme an Appearance and Socialize to show her you are interested..."


"You kick open the door to the bandit's hideout. You know your Plasma Tongue Repeaters are out of shells, but they don't. Yet. Give me an Appearance and Presence or Performance to act like you're ready to take them all out in a blaze of alchemical fire."


"The lecherous old Sifu has promised to teach you his esoteric martial arts style if you can sufficiently impress him with your 'skills'. I want an Appearance and Martial Arts, difficulty three, roll to show him how good you really are."


In actual social combat, I think it plays little part. You could be ugly as sin and still be able to argue the Deathlords back into their crypts or you could look like an incarnate goddess and not be able to hold your own in a conversation with a child.


Captain Hesperus