Futuristic Agent of Maniacles OOC and Characters

[Kinggunlucky]

Aye, but he does aid Batman many times

True.
But Dr.Doom has helped the FF on many occassion to. He's still a bad dude. The only thing Ras does different and I love him for it is that he calls Batman 'Detective'. So cool. The respect.

 

[KotaKotsu]

True.
But Dr.Doom has helped the FF on many occassion to. He's still a bad dude. The only thing Ras does different and I love him for it is that he calls Batman 'Detective'. So cool. The respect.

Well, there's also a difference beyond Dr. Doom beside the universe clash. And that's that Dr. Doom hasn't ever tried to save any of their children. I refer to when he tried saving Jason Todd using the lazarus pit, or when he saved Batman using it a few times. Dr. Doom, I feel, wouldn't go to such lengths as that. Knowing how much it would bite him. Except for maybe Sue. But that's because ya know, lost love and all that.

 

[Kinggunlucky]

Well, there's also a difference beyond Dr. Doom beside the universe clash. And that's that Dr. Doom hasn't ever tried to save any of their children. I refer to when he tried saving Jason Todd using the lazarus pit, or when he saved Batman using it a few times. Dr. Doom, I feel, wouldn't go to such lengths as that. Knowing how much it would bite him. Except for maybe Sue. But that's because ya know, lost love and all that.

Dr. Doom has saved Sue. He helped her when there was wonky stuff happening with her pregnancy. He helped as long as he was allowed to name the child. Doom also fiercely protects Latveria and its people, while also being a dictator, but he will defend his territory and the people. He saved Kitty Pryde in Mutant Massacre spinoff crossover thing. Went through hell and back to save his mother's soul. He also saved the entire universe in Secret Wars. Poorly. But he did.

Doom is a piece of shit of course mostly, but he's a far more ordered evil in Marvel. Of course with comics it depends who is writing, but tradtionally he is.

As for the Lazarus Pit.

Ras bringing Jason Todd back wasn't in the original canon. Now, note, I think that's what it is now. Maybe. I'm not sure. They did it in the Red Hood movie. A way better scenario honestly, but originally Jason Todd came back from Superboy Prime punching continuity.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Dr. Doom has saved Sue. He helped her when there was wonky stuff happening with her pregnancy. He helped as long as he was allowed to name the child. Doom also fiercely protects Latveria and its people, while also being a dictator, but he will defend his territory and the people. He saved Kitty Pryde in Mutant Massacre spinoff crossover thing. Went through hell and back to save his mother's soul. He also saved the entire universe in Secret Wars. Poorly. But he did.

Doom is a piece of shit of course mostly, but he's a far more ordered evil in Marvel. Of course with comics it depends who is writing, but tradtionally he is.

As for the Lazarus Pit.

Ras bringing Jason Todd back wasn't in the original canon. Now, note, I think that's what it is now. They did it in the Red Hood movie. A way better scenario, but originally Jason Todd came back from Superboy Prime punching continuity.

I JUST SAID EXCEPT SUE

 

[Kinggunlucky]

I JUST SAID EXCEPT SUE

I believe I gave other examples as well.

 

[KotaKotsu]

I believe I gave other examples.

You did but most of them served selfish purposes.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Dr. Doom has saved Sue. He helped her when there was wonky stuff happening with her pregnancy. He helped as long as he was allowed to name the child. Doom also fiercely protects Latveria and its people, while also being a dictator, but he will defend his territory and the people. He saved Kitty Pryde in Mutant Massacre spinoff crossover thing. Went through hell and back to save his mother's soul. He also saved the entire universe in Secret Wars. Poorly. But he did.

Doom is a piece of shit of course mostly, but he's a far more ordered evil in Marvel. Of course with comics it depends who is writing, but tradtionally he is.

As for the Lazarus Pit.

Ras bringing Jason Todd back wasn't in the original canon. Now, note, I think that's what it is now. Maybe. I'm not sure. They did it in the Red Hood movie. A way better scenario honestly, but originally Jason Todd came back from Superboy Prime punching continuity.

But you are right about the cosmic clash originally bringing him back from the dead as a deformed zombie.

 

[Spoiled Bread]

I don't follow comics so I choose you Midoriya!

 

[KotaKotsu]

Dr. Doom has saved Sue. He helped her when there was wonky stuff happening with her pregnancy. He helped as long as he was allowed to name the child. Doom also fiercely protects Latveria and its people, while also being a dictator, but he will defend his territory and the people. He saved Kitty Pryde in Mutant Massacre spinoff crossover thing. Went through hell and back to save his mother's soul. He also saved the entire universe in Secret Wars. Poorly. But he did.

Doom is a piece of shit of course mostly, but he's a far more ordered evil in Marvel. Of course with comics it depends who is writing, but tradtionally he is.

As for the Lazarus Pit.

Ras bringing Jason Todd back wasn't in the original canon. Now, note, I think that's what it is now. Maybe. I'm not sure. They did it in the Red Hood movie. A way better scenario honestly, but originally Jason Todd came back from Superboy Prime punching continuity.

But Ra's even though the head of the league of assassins, has built orphanages, has raised temples to help people seek peace without violence, contrary to his lifestyle. He's in more way shapes and forms, helped shape the world in an entrepreneurial way than Dr. Doom ever could or would.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Sorry, not entrepreneurial, there's another word. It's similar.

 

[KotaKotsu]

BENEFICIAL! that's the word I was thinking of! My bad.

 

[Freikugel]

Am PRETTY fine with Martial MANhunter

 

[mmarage]

Sorry, not entrepreneurial, there's another word. It's similar.

Philanthropist.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Philanthropist.

Even better!

 

[Kinggunlucky]

You did but most of them served selfish purposes.

Saving Kitty Pryde nor his mother are what I would consider selfish. Now most of Doom's goals are very selfish, but Doom generally believes the world would be a better place with him in charge. And he's right to a degree. In his encounter with the Panther God, The God judges any man with selfish desires or destruction in his heart. Doom met it and explained his vision. And he was deemed worthy. The God didn't kill him, why? Because Doom's will is so great he generally believes that is vision for the future will benefit all mankind and ensure our survival. The Panther God was forced to agree with him.

Does this make Doom good? Not at all.

I'd never mistake him for a hero, but I think you're playing up Ras a little to much here. Not to say you're wrong. Ras does a lot of generous things. He can be noble, but so can Doom. But they aren't good men by any stretch of the word.

Ras Al Ghul usual goals tends to be committing mass genocide on humanity and rebuilding society in a manner he thinks is more fitting. He's an eco-terrorist and social darwinist who is the head of the largest or at least one of the largest assassin groups on the DC Earth. Ras might have noble goals and help people, but the man has still slaughtered thousands due to what he is and his long term goal is bumping off a majority of the population. Millions of innocent people.

 

[Kinggunlucky]

EVEN if we are just keeping it in DC.

I'd rather rep with Lex Luthor then Ras Al Ghul

 

[KotaKotsu]

Saving Kitty Pryde nor his mother are what I would consider selfish. Now most of Doom's goals are very selfish, but Doom generally believes the world would be a better place with him in charge. And he's right to a degree. In his encounter with the Panther God, The God judges any man with selfish desires or destruction in his heart. Doom met it and explained his vision. And he was deemed worthy. The God didn't kill him, why? Because Doom's will is so great he generally believes that is vision for the future will benefit all mankind and ensure our survival. The Panther God was forced to agree with him.

Does this make Doom good? Not at all.

I'd never mistake him for a hero, but I think you're playing up Ras a little to much here. Not to say you're wrong. Ras does a lot of generous things. He can be noble, but so can Doom. But they aren't good men by any stretch of the word.

Ras Al Ghul usual goals tends to be committing mass genocide on humanity and rebuilding society in a manner he thinks is more fitting. He's an eco-terrorist and social darwinist who is the head of the largest or at least one of the largest assassin groups on the DC Earth. Ras might have noble goals and help people, but the man has still slaughtered thousands due to what he is and his long term goal is bumping off a majority of the population. Millions of innocent people.

Doom has also crushed people constantly, if we're taking his whole damages into account. I mean, realistically look at the destruction he brings about him in his battles. His body count would be on par with that of Ra's. On that same note, Batman destroying Gotham and all the Innocents killed constantly but the few he saves. The same with Superman, even though he can turn back time by flying around the world in the opposite spin of it's axis, he doesn't save Metropolis from the destruction he brings nor it's people. Using the ideaology of belief to defend why he was able to convince the panther God is like saying Deadpool lifting Thor's Hammer is proof he should be the next Thor. Simply because he believes he's not done anything wrong in his life and therefore since he's just in his own eyes. Even though he can justify his actions, doesn't necessarily mean much, considering he's a mercenary for hire.

But I can get what you're saying as well.

This reminds me of a similar conversation I had in regards to One Punch Man coming into the Dragon Ball Universe. Since he's a planet buster and everyone at the end of the Buu saga is on the level of a galaxy destroyer. Not to mention if we take Super into account since they shatter literal reality in the canon Broly movie, well. Take a hero who's schitck is one punching, to people who could eviscerate Gods, well, it doesn't stack up well. And Saitama canonically is faster than light but... would be more than a planet buster by that standard? But for some reason Luffy from One Piece was in a Shonen collab episode of some sorts that elludes me currently with Goku and a few others and could match Goku on a Super Saiyan level. Which, realistically, wouldn't be possible.

What I'm trying to get at is, the belief system in marvel and comics in general is flawed to fuck. But at least at the end of it, I've seen more things constructed to aid people versus destroyed to harm people by Ra's versus Doom. Ra's owns his mistakes. Doom justifies them.

 

[KotaKotsu]

I like these conversations though, man. It's good to put shit into perspective.

 

[KotaKotsu]

All Kotsu wants is a nap.

 

[GamerCarrot]

All Kotsu wants is a nap.

No napping on the job

 

[Kinggunlucky]

Doom has also crushed people constantly, if we're taking his whole damages into account. I mean, realistically look at the destruction he brings about him in his battles. His body count would be on par with that of Ra's. Using the ideaology of belief to defend why he was able to convince the panther God is like saying Deadpool lifting Thor's Hammer is proof he should be the next Thor. Simply because he believes he's not done anything wrong in his life and therefore since he's just in his own eyes. Even though he can justify his actions, doesn't necessarily mean much, considering he's a mercenary for hire.

But I can get what you're saying as well.

This reminds me of a similar conversation I had in regards to One Punch Man coming into the Dragon Ball Universe. Since he's a planet buster and everyone at the end of the Buu saga is on the level of a galaxy destroyer. Not to mention if we take Super into account since they shatter literal reality in the canon Broly movie, well. Take a hero who's schitck is one punching, to people who could eviscerate Gods, well, it doesn't stack up well. And Saitama canonically is faster than light but... would be more than a planet buster by that standard? But for some reason Luffy from One Piece was in a Shonen collab episode of some sorts that elludes me currently with Goku and a few others and could match Goku on a Super Saiyan level. Which, realistically, wouldn't be possible.

What I'm trying to get at is, the belief system in marvel is flawed to fuck. But at least at the end of it, I've seen more things constructed to aid people versus destroyed to harm people by Ra's.

Deadpool lifting Thor's hammer is rule of funny. Comics are written by various writers. Deadpool is a comedy book mostly. Not to mention the hammer Deadpool lifted was a false one. Loki made it via to give the illusion of having Thor's powers. Deadpool cannot lift Thor's hammer. The people who have actually lifted the hammer have all fit the bill fairly well have being worthy. I'm sure there have been some hiccups over the years, but for the majority of the character's history 'worthy' has meant you actually had to have something special about you to wield it.

It is usually a combination of selflessness, heroism, among other things.

And yes Dr. Doom has crushed people, he's killed people. He's not a good man. Neither is Ras. They both have goals of trying to make the world a better place, but I think Ras has done tons of harms and what he's planning will do ton more. He's a fanatical cult leader who's planning to kill off a good portion of the planet so he can make it better. He raises children up from birth to be killers and murderers. He runs of a league of killers and agents who all follow him like he's a god.

What good he does do does not absolve him of he is.

I don't think he's anymore noble or less so then Doom.

But even if we just keep it in DC. He's no better than the some of the other major players/masterminds. I think his goals are more detrimental then helpful. So let's say he succeeds, right? He somehow beats Batman, the rest of the heroes, and the villians. He wipes the slate clean and starts rebuilding.

What happens when the next alien invasion hits? Cause it will. A lot of enemies out there. Old and new. The greater threats out there. His plan would effectively not only kill many many innocents, but leave the world robbed of its greatest defenders.

He's bad for the world.

All the villains are usually, but if we are saying we had to pick ones to have their plans or be the one that's supposed to help humanity I think Lex Luthor or characters similar to him make far more sense then Ras.

What's Lex Luthor motivated by? He cannot stand that Superman is a better man than him and more beloved. Lex will fund research, donate to charities, build monuments etc, but everyone has to know he's the one doing it. It is him. Egomania run wild. A part of him desires to be the savior of humanity, though.

And Superman generally thinks him capable of the task. "You could have saved the world a long time ago Luthor if it meant anything to you."

Lex is a bad man, btw. He's insane with jealousy, but if the chips were down I would bet money on Lex being able to come up with an actual plan to save mankind or make the world a better place over Ras. Same goes for Doom. Not to say they would. I'm just saying the capability is there and their goals don't usually fit mass genocide into it. Not to say Doom or Lex have never committed genocide, but remember...comics have been around for years. I don't know every story. Ras has continuously shown he is willing to exterminate most of mankind.

None of their visions are good btw for the world. All these men are capable and intelligent, but Luthor and Doom are held back by egomania and Ras by Darwinism.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Deadpool lifting Thor's hammer is rule of funny. Comics are written by various writers. Deadpool is a comedy book mostly. Not to mention the hammer Deadpool lifted was a false one. Loki made it via to give the illusion of having Thor's powers. Deadpool cannot lift Thor's hammer. The people who have actually lifted the hammer have all fit the bill fairly well have being worthy. I'm sure there have been some hiccups over the years, but for the majority of the character's history 'worthy' has meant you actually had to have something special about you to wield it.

It is usually a combination of selflessness, heroism, among other things.

And yes Dr. Doom has crushed people, he's killed people. He's not a good man. Neither is Ras. They both have goals of trying to make the world a better place, but I think Ras has done tons of harms and what he's planning will do ton more. He's a fanatical cult leader who's planning to kill off a good portion of the planet so he can make it better. He raises children up from birth to be killers and murderers. He runs of a league of killers and agents who all follow him like he's a god.

What good he does do does not absolve him of he is.

I don't think he's anymore noble or less so then Doom.

But even if we just keep it in DC. He's no better than the some of the other major players/masterminds. I think his goals are more detrimental then helpful. So let's say he succeeds, right? He somehow beats Batman, the rest of the heroes, and the villians. He wipes the slate clean and starts rebuilding.

What happens when the next alien invasion hits? Cause it will. A lot of enemies out there. Old and new. The greater threats out there. His plan would effectively not only kill many many innocents, but leave the world robbed of its greatest defenders.

He's bad for the world.

All the villains are usually, but if we are saying we had to pick ones to have their plans or be the one that's supposed to help humanity I think Lex Luthor or characters similar to him make far more sense then Ras.

What's Lex Luthor motivated by? He cannot stand that Superman is a better man than him and more beloved. Lex will fund research, donate to charities, build monuments etc, but everyone has to know he's the one doing it. It is him. Egomania run wild. A part of him desires to be the savior of humanity, though.

And Superman generally thinks him capable of the task. "You could have saved the world a long time ago Luthor if it meant anything to you."

Lex is a bad man, btw. He's insane with jealousy, but if the chips were down I would bet money on Lex being able to come up with an actual plan to save mankind or make the world a better place over Ras. Same goes for Doom. Not to say they would. I'm just saying the capability is there and their goals don't usually fit mass genocide into it. Not to say Doom or Lex have never committed genocide, but remember...comics have been around for years. I don't know every story. Ras has continuously shown he is willing to exterminate most of mankind.

None of their visions are good btw for the world. All these men are capable and intelligent, but Luthor and Doom are held back by egomania and Ras by Darwinism.

Ah, but you forget one critical piece of information that makes Ra's not responsible for the future. IF Ra's beats Batman with the one thing he desires the most; he gives Batman the throne of the league of assassins. Essentially, Bruce will be the next Ra's, but in Bruce's own mindset, he'd take the same contingencies he always has. He'd keep his old allies alive, he'd contain them all, maybe brain wash, maybe manipulate, but they'd be around. Mostly to aid in the next alien brawl. Ra's has always wanted Bruce to take the throne. He settles for Thalia even after decades of trying to convince Bruce.

Batman being beaten, would be the ultimate victory. And Ra's as a tactician who wants to lead the future, would know that. If Ra's won, Batman would be his ace in controlling the world. Now imagine a league of assassins trained by Bruce. He'd have an army to turn around on Ra's, but also, he'd still be the leader of the league. Albeit he may become more corrupt, he'd still be Bruce through and through.

 

[Kinggunlucky]

Ah, but you forget one critical piece of information that makes Ra's not responsible for the future. IF Ra's beats Batman with the one thing he desires the most; he gives Batman the throne of the league of assassins. Essentially, Bruce will be the next Ra's, but in Bruce's own mindset, he'd take the same contingencies he always has. He'd keep his old allies alive, he'd contain them all, maybe brain wash, maybe manipulate, but they'd be around. Mostly to aid in the next alien brawl. Ra's has always wanted Bruce to take the throne. He settles for Thalia even after decades of trying to convince Bruce.

Batman being beaten, would be the ultimate victory. And Ra's as a tactician who wants to lead the future, would know that. If Ra's won, Batman would be his ace in controlling the world.

Ah, but you forget that Batman would never do that. And that's where it falls apart. Sure, there are alternate universe and elseworlds and what not. But Batman would never do that. Bruce Wayne fights the eternal defeat.

Batman knows the score, knows what's at stake, and he is smart enough to see that through all the wealth, noble goals, and respect that Ras is still a criminal.

And Ras's plan is for Bruce to marry into the family, yes, but usually that comes with stipulations and Ras expects him to take his place. I don't mean Bruce takes over and his own mindset. The goal is to have Bruce be convinced of what Ras believes in and carry on from there. It would be a very cutthroat and willing to kill version of Batman.

And there is absolutely no guarantee a Batman with beliefs in line with Ras would keel his old allies alive. He'd have to kill some, brainwash others. And at that point he's not Batman. But once again. It will never happen. Batman knows how bad Ras is.

And ya know?

These will probably be fighting words, but I don't think he could do it.

I know The Batman Who Laughs did it, but that's alternate universe mumbo jumbo. I don't think Batman could take over the Earth. I think he'd lose. If we ran the scenario of Batman taking over The League and unleashing Ras's plans I'd say the odds are still against him. Logically speaking. I think he'd be stopped in more scenarios than not.

 

[KotaKotsu]

Ah, but you forget that Batman would never do that. And that's where it falls apart. Sure, there are alternate universe and elseworlds and what not. But Batman would never do that. Bruce Wayne fights the eternal defeat.

Batman knows the score, knows what's at stake, and he is smart enough to see that through all the wealth, noble goals, and respect that Ras is still a criminal.

And Ras's plan is for Bruce to marry into the family, yes, but usually that comes with stipulations and Ras expects him to take his place. I don't mean Bruce takes over and his own mindset. The goal is to have Bruce be convinced of what Ras believes in and carry on from there. It would be a very cutthroat and willing to kill version of Batman.

And there is absolutely no guarantee a Batman with beliefs in line with Ras would keel his old allies alive. He'd have to kill some, brainwash others. And at that point he's not Batman. But once again. It will never happen. Batman knows how bad Ras is.

And ya know?

These will probably be fighting words, but I don't think he could do it.

I know The Batman Who Laughs did it, but that's alternate universe mumbo jumbo. I don't think Batman could take over the Earth. I think he'd lose. If we ran the scenario of Batman taking over The League and unleashing Ras's plans I'd say the odds are still against him. Logically speaking. I think he'd be stopped in more scenarios than not.

You forget another universe alternate. Owlman, stopped only by Batman. He takes over the world using the evil hero alternates as his own league. But Batman could. And you said IF Ra's won. Didn't say how large or small the victory had to be. Just that he won, yeah? Loopholes baby.

 

[Exzalia]

Alright guys!

I'm going to move the story along.

Next arc is Fizzroys and carmilles!

But I'll do it tomorrow cause i gotta sleep/ LATERS