Ability + Ability Rolls

[Dereis]

How often, as a ST, do you use ability + ability rolls?  They are suggested by the main book as appropriate in some circumstances, but by using them, you are partially robbing Attributes of their vaunted place above abilities in experience/bonus point cost and training time.  My players are always coming up with crazy situations in which it seems like it ab + ab rolls would be more appropriate, but the setup of the mechanics seems to suggest that it is inappropriate to do this more often than say, once or twice a session.

 

[Flagg]

I've never used them, and never seen a situation where it would be appropriate. I don't use Attribute+Attribute either.


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Generally speaking, if there are two Abilities that can cover a situation, then I usually let them have the Attribute+Ability roll for both Abilities.  


I've never used an Ability+Ability roll.

 

[Dereis]

Yea, I usually try to divide the task into small steps and use a variety of rolls, but it ends up being tedious and the dice rolling slows down the pace of the game.  I have actually used them before, but I don't make a habit of it.  I thought it was mentioned in the main book, but when I went back to look for it to reference I couldn't find it.

 

[Samiel]

Generally speaking, if there are two Abilities that can cover a situation, then I usually let them have the Attribute+Ability roll for both Abilities.  
I've never used an Ability+Ability roll.

If it's quite ambiguous, I let them roll the higher or the lower of either skill (depending on mood and relevance).


In the new WOD, you regularly roll attribute+attribute, but never skill+skill.


Somehow I see it as wrong-like trying to run solitaire without an OS. You have no foundation to base the skill on. You might say.. amoral.  :shock:

 

[Jakk Bey]

With the Abilities being as wide ranging as they are, it's hard to imagine how you'd get an Ability+Ability roll.


Endurance+Resistance?  Not so much.  Endurance+Stamina certainly.  Athletics+Dodge?  Why not Athletics or Dodge+Dexterity?  Athletics+Occult, not seeing it so much.  Awareness+Socialize?  Maybe, but why not Awareness+Perception?  Or Awareness+Wits?  


I'm just having a hard time getting situations where you'd even want to try to combine Abilities, given how clear the delineation is between them--even Performance and Socialize are pretty clearly marked off for where they cut off from each other.


Can we have some examples, I suppose, because maybe we're just dull and thick?*


*No, really.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea, and if you can give an example or two it might help. No snarkiness intended. Just very confused.  Hungry, and confused.

 

[Vanman]

Can we have some examples, I suppose, because maybe we're just dull and thick?*
*No, really.  I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea, and if you can give an example or two it might help. No snarkiness intended. Just very confused.  Hungry, and confused.

I'll try, but I want to preface this with the fact that I don't think I'd ever do this in game. I agree with most of the sentiments expressed already. But I could see some instances where it might be applicable.


Presence+Performance. Giving a big speech before the battle. Your speech is the product of the Performance Ability, and your Presence adds your long-term leadership skills to the speech, giving it more weight. The troops know what you're on about because they've followed you in battle. Yes, Charisma could play a similar role, but it wouldn't necessarily convey the weight of your experience in battle.


Awareness+Investigation. I know, I know, Perception is the obvious choice here. But Awareness would work just as well here, by using your Awareness to facilitate your Investigation.....


Bureacracy+Linguistics. Haggling and/or doing business in a foreign tongue, particularly if you're using Still's version of Linguistics. Your ability to know and detect nuances of language help you in reading either the merchant or the customer and knowing when to sell or hold on just a little longer.


Larceny+Stealth. If you need to pick the lock quietly, you could use this combination. It would cover all aspects of the activity - keeping quiet, avoiding the notice of guards, and the actual skill used to pick said lock. And picking it quietly.


Occult+Lore. Researching the behemoth that Deathlord is using? Trying to find out what deals a certain demon has a predilection for? The effect iron has on the Fair Folk? You can use Lore to complement and enhance your Occult knowledge, and vice versa.


Crafts+Occult. Making the magical daiklave. Or armor fit for the Fair Folk. Or a particular nifty dress for that spirit who's been batting her eyelashes at you. Combining Crafts and Occult allows you to make magical goodies or, at least, allows you to plan them.


Medicine+Occult. Gotten pegged by a dart from a Wyldman's blow gun? Rumour has it they cote their darts with a poison made from the Wyld itself. This combination allows you to deal with those magical poisons, injuries and illnesses.


Again, these are just possibilities that I probably wouldn't use, but could see some logic if an ST were to call for the roll. Just my two cents.


Cheers,


V

 

[Jakk Bey]

It was a good try.  


I can see how some folks might take that logic, but even still, why not just make the Attribute+Ability rolls in conjunction?  Does making two dice rolls take so much time?  


And if you're looking for extended actions, like a Performance or Presence check--Presence to get their attention, Performance to keep it--then you'd need more rolls anyhow.  Same with Occult and Craft rolls--Craft to create the object, Occult to prepare it for the mystical dap.  


And let's face it: all of these examples can be handled with a little judicious Stunting.  Quiet lockpicking--that's a Larceny Stunt.  Wyld Poison, that's a great chance for a Medicine Stunt.  Or an Occult Stunt if you'd rather stress the mystical portion of the show.


Bureacracy Stunt to jump through government hoops in a foreign land--you're that good a paper pusher.  


But, it was a good try--and I recognize the thought exercise portion of the show of your post, so no hoo hoo about it and to be honest, you did a better job than I think most folks could do in trying to defend the practice.   But, I don't think I'll be doing a lot of Ability+Ability rolls.

 

[Vanman]

Like I said, it's not something I'd do in my campaign. I was just playing the defense lawyer/devil's advocate and defending the position.


:-)


The one combination that seems the most logical to me is Awareness and Investigation, but that's because Perception and Awareness seem so similar to me. Awareness just seems like Perception distilled down to an ability. In game, though, I'd never ask for an Awareness+Perception roll, for the very reason that they are so close together, it just makes more sense to use Perception.


But it was an interesting exercise trying to defend the Ability+Ability rolls......


Cheers,


V