Fandom A Song of Ice and Fire RP (Game of Thrones)

[WanderingJester]

Considering Gregor was fighting Oberyn while still recovering from injuries in the war, notably from the Red Fork, he moved pretty seemlessly and was able to stay nearly up with Oberyn. Oberyn was faster in that instant, but his agility was partially due to the hindered movement (heavy armor) and the narrow slitted helmet that Gregor wore, Tyrion notes it cut off his vision and Oberyn abused that. Hard to hit something you cannot see.
And still they went back and forth, the narrow vision and the two foot longer (than Gregor's sword) spear being what kept Oberyn afloat. Him dancing around The Mountain wasn't due to a lack of speed, but a pair of disadvantages, that when Gregor tired, Oberyn exploited all the better. I have little reason to doubt that Gregor isn't as fast or faster than Oberyn, considering the sheer muscle mass of the man and his own performance in the duel, when not in the most cumbersome armor even dawned.

The explanation that you give is saying that because of the heavy armor and narrowed vision, Gregor was slower than Oberyn in that fight. I'm proposing that Gregor was never fast enough to keep up with Oberyn to begin with, let alone be faster than the Viper.


If you mean "went back and forth" as in Oberyn landing multiple minor cuts all over Gregor throughout the fight, then yes, I agree. The point with Oberyn was that he already coated his spear with poison, so his goal being the same thing (land cuts into inflict poison on the guy). Yes the desire to take down Gregor after he tires is there and it caused Oberyn his life, but his game plan going into it was to use a weapon with better reach than his enemy, and tired the Mountain out until he had a good enough opening to make a critical wound like hamstringing Gregor.


Just as you have little reason to doubt Gregor isn't as fast than Oberyn, I have little reason to believe that he is. Just because you have more muscle doesn't mean you're faster. Oberyn was just as in shape as Gregor combat wise, even if he's smaller. Shaq in his prime probably had +90% muscles to fat percentage, but he would not be able to keep up with Lebron, who pound for pound have less muscle mass. Saying that just because someone's muscle mass is larger than someone else's makes the first person just as fast or faster than them is not something I can accept.

 

[ACHA]

I'm still waiting on Kuvira for my intro post. I still don't know what the queen is doing at the moment so I can't plan what my character is doing. xD

 

[Akio]

I'm still waiting on Kuvira for my intro post. I still don't know what the queen is doing at the moment so I can't plan what my character is doing. xD

Kuriva is being insane xD

 

[ACHA]

I knew that but can you be a bit more specific about it. xD

 

[Hypnos]

I knew that but can you be a bit more specific about it. xD

She was last seen walking into the gardens of the Red Keep after beginning to negotiate with some Ibbenese emissaries where she was approached by Lord Baelor Velaryon. @Robyn Banks hasn't written anything since but I think she mentioned that she was going to write something (and murder someone) soon.

 

[D3lmoniko]

She was last seen walking into the gardens of the Red Keep after beginning to negotiate with some Ibbenese emissaries where she was approached by Lord Baelor Velaryon. @Robyn Banks hasn't written anything since but I think she mentioned that she was going to write something (and murder someone) soon.

write something (and murder someone) soon.

(and murder someone) soon.

 

[TheAncientCelt]

The explanation that you give is saying that because of the heavy armor and narrowed vision, Gregor was slower than Oberyn in that fight. I'm proposing that Gregor was never fast enough to keep up with Oberyn to begin with, let alone be faster than the Viper.
If you mean "went back and forth" as in Oberyn landing multiple minor cuts all over Gregor throughout the fight, then yes, I agree. The point with Oberyn was that he already coated his spear with poison, so his goal being the same thing (land cuts into inflict poison on the guy). Yes the desire to take down Gregor after he tires is there and it caused Oberyn his life, but his game plan going into it was to use a weapon with better reach than his enemy, and tired the Mountain out until he had a good enough opening to make a critical wound like hamstringing Gregor.


Just as you have little reason to doubt Gregor isn't as fast than Oberyn, I have little reason to believe that he is. Just because you have more muscle doesn't mean you're faster. Oberyn was just as in shape as Gregor combat wise, even if he's smaller. Shaq in his prime probably had +90% muscles to fat percentage, but he would not be able to keep up with Lebron, who pound for pound have less muscle mass. Saying that just because someone's muscle mass is larger than someone else's makes the first person just as fast or faster than them is not something I can accept.

What I was saying is that all accumulated into a poorer performance from Gregor, whilst making Oberyn better. It's not just my opinion, that's a fact. And yes, back and forth. Despite having both reach and a weapon more suited to landing quick blows (Jabbing a spear forward is significantly quicker than completing a sword arc) Gregor was forcing Oberyn away constantly/Oberyn needed to avoid his sword slashes.


Does that not strike you as a tad incredible? If the Mountain was slow, or significantly slower than Oberyn, the fact that he's on Oberyn's toes is pretty impressive. It stands out even more when you realize Oberyn was using the narrow vision Gregor had to help him escape.


The sports reference is lost on me, I don't watch Basketball. And I understand muscle mass isn't everything, but Gregor is eight feet of solid muscle. Even if he wasn't as fast as a man his size (and with more lean muscle, or better cardio, what have you) is, his speed is still amazing. It's not like comparing two men who are both relatively the same height and weight, it's a man at least a foot and a half larger than the other, both in great shape. We obviously don't know Oberyn's height, but I don't think he's ever stated to be tall, or strikingly so. I'd place him around late 5 feet to short six feet. But that's speculatory. The difference in size and mass is stunning.


The paragraph on his fighting strategy I don't think matters too much. With all that armor on, and not having his full vision, he pressured Oberyn. Usually plate armor is what, 30-60 pounds? Not too cumbersome, modern soldiers carry around more on tours of duty in the Middle East. But Gregor's is significantly heavier, and I'm confident that if you remove the armor from the equation you'd get one of the fastest characters in the series.


I'm not saying that Gregor without his armor could beat Oberyn, or he's superior without it. He has a distinctive fighting style, and still is fast enough to pressure lighter enemies.

 

[Rhosvyn]

@Archon


Will Lord Umber be arriving at Winterfell soon?

 

[Akio]

What I was saying is that all accumulated into a poorer performance from Gregor, whilst making Oberyn better. It's not just my opinion, that's a fact. And yes, back and forth. Despite having both reach and a weapon more suited to landing quick blows (Jabbing a spear forward is significantly quicker than completing a sword arc) Gregor was forcing Oberyn away constantly/Oberyn needed to avoid his sword slashes.
Does that not strike you as a tad incredible? If the Mountain was slow, or significantly slower than Oberyn, the fact that he's on Oberyn's toes is pretty impressive. It stands out even more when you realize Oberyn was using the narrow vision Gregor had to help him escape.


The sports reference is lost on me, I don't watch Basketball. And I understand muscle mass isn't everything, but Gregor is eight feet of solid muscle. Even if he wasn't as fast as a man his size (and with more lean muscle, or better cardio, what have you) is, his speed is still amazing. It's not like comparing two men who are both relatively the same height and weight, it's a man at least a foot and a half larger than the other, both in great shape. We obviously don't know Oberyn's height, but I don't think he's ever stated to be tall, or strikingly so. I'd place him around late 5 feet to short six feet. But that's speculatory. The difference in size and mass is stunning.


The paragraph on his fighting strategy I don't think matters too much. With all that armor on, and not having his full vision, he pressured Oberyn. Usually plate armor is what, 30-60 pounds? Not too cumbersome, modern soldiers carry around more on tours of duty in the Middle East. But Gregor's is significantly heavier, and I'm confident that if you remove the armor from the equation you'd get one of the fastest characters in the series.


I'm not saying that Gregor without his armor could beat Oberyn, or he's superior without it. He has a distinctive fighting style, and still is fast enough to pressure lighter enemies.

Gregor was very food at abusing his arm length is massive sweep arcs, he could cut almost cover a 200 degree angle in front of him, one of his sweeping blows was terrifying and every character admitted that for his size Gregor was startling fast. But Oberyn was more more nimble then him and probably would be even without armor and he abused it well. As we state earlier a spear is weak against plate for many reasons yet he got around it pretty well, I wont say Oberyn was significantly faster but he was more more agile though I don't think he could beat the mountain in a foot race to be honest

 

[TheAncientCelt]

As we state earlier a spear is weak against plate for many reasons yet he got around it pretty well

Yes, by having Gregor lose his balance and digging it between the different pieces of metal when he was defenseless. Gregor abused his length, but it was said in the battle Oberyn's spear kept Gregor at bay. If he had a longer reach, this would hardly be the case.

 

[Akio]

Yes, by having Gregor lose his balance and digging it between the different pieces of metal when he was defenseless. Gregor abused his length, but it was said in the battle Oberyn's spear kept Gregor at bay. If he had a longer reach, this would hardly be the case.

Isnt that the entire point of a spear though, to abuse the length? Can't fault one for their weapon choices

 

[TheAncientCelt]

Isnt that the entire point of a spear though, to abuse the length? Can't fault one for their weapon choices

I wasn't, but then doesn't it make it more impressive that Gregor bypasses this two-foot reach advantage to pressure Oberyn several times?

 

[Akio]

I wasn't, but then doesn't it make it more impressive that Gregor bypasses this two-foot reach advantage to pressure Oberyn several times?

Yes though part of the reason is Oberyn was trying to find an angle around him which did create some openings as well but yes Gregor being as fast as he was for his size was very impressive

 

[WanderingJester]

What I was saying is that all accumulated into a poorer performance from Gregor, whilst making Oberyn better. It's not just my opinion, that's a fact. And yes, back and forth. Despite having both reach and a weapon more suited to landing quick blows (Jabbing a spear forward is significantly quicker than completing a sword arc) Gregor was forcing Oberyn away constantly/Oberyn needed to avoid his sword slashes.
Does that not strike you as a tad incredible? If the Mountain was slow, or significantly slower than Oberyn, the fact that he's on Oberyn's toes is pretty impressive. It stands out even more when you realize Oberyn was using the narrow vision Gregor had to help him escape.


The sports reference is lost on me, I don't watch Basketball. And I understand muscle mass isn't everything, but Gregor is eight feet of solid muscle. Even if he wasn't as fast as a man his size (and with more lean muscle, or better cardio, what have you) is, his speed is still amazing. It's not like comparing two men who are both relatively the same height and weight, it's a man at least a foot and a half larger than the other, both in great shape. We obviously don't know Oberyn's height, but I don't think he's ever stated to be tall, or strikingly so. I'd place him around late 5 feet to short six feet. But that's speculatory. The difference in size and mass is stunning.


The paragraph on his fighting strategy I don't think matters too much. With all that armor on, and not having his full vision, he pressured Oberyn. Usually plate armor is what, 30-60 pounds? Not too cumbersome, modern soldiers carry around more on tours of duty in the Middle East. But Gregor's is significantly heavier, and I'm confident that if you remove the armor from the equation you'd get one of the fastest characters in the series.


I'm not saying that Gregor without his armor could beat Oberyn, or he's superior without it. He has a distinctive fighting style, and still is fast enough to pressure lighter enemies.

Really I'm all professing here is that Gregor, while fast for a man his size, isn't necessarily fast(er than Obreyn); I'm not even addressing Obreyn vs Gregor in a fight at this point honestly. I would attest Gregor pushing Oberyn back as a combination of skill with his reach and Oberyn's caution/game plan of tiring Gregor out. If I were to tire someone in armor out, I'll constantly poke them and back away as they swing at me too.


Of course Gregor's strength and the speed he has to go with it is incredible, but no more incredible to me than perhaps an NBA player moving up and down the court at a speed enough to keep up with the pace of a game.


Since you don't watch basketball, I'll use stats to go with the names. Sim Bhullar is 7'5" and weights 359 lbs. Assuming that like most NBA professionals, less than 10% of that 359 pounds would be fat. Kyrie Irving is 6'3" and weights a 193 lbs, so around the upper end of your estimation. Bhullar has, with estimates, around 150 lbs of muscle mass on Irving, pound for pound. Yet, Irving would run circles around Bhullar with ease. So carry the comparison over to what we're talking about. I'll take that both Gregor and Obreyn are of similar fitness (prime fitness for combat), in that both their weights contain less than 10% body fat. While one is massive and the other isn't, Obreyn, by same comparison, would be faster than Gregor.


If you want to say that Gregor without his armor is extremely fast, I would point back to Bhullar's example. His profession is literally running up and down a hardwood court at a fast pace to keep up with the game, and while he has a massive amount of muscle mass, he's nowhere near the fastest player in the game. Just because you have more muscle mass, it doesn't make you faster. There's still the virtue of smaller people are more agile and fast than larger people.

 

[Rhosvyn]

<p><a href="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2016_04/acok-ltd-edition-map-of-kings-landing.jpg.18b34c904246a77487cf32420fdb7dd0.jpg" class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image"><img data-fileid="118992" src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2016_04/acok-ltd-edition-map-of-kings-landing.jpg.18b34c904246a77487cf32420fdb7dd0.jpg" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" alt=""></a></p>


I found this map of Kings Landing.

 

[WanderingJester]

A battle more titanic than any in fantasy literature.

 

[Rhosvyn]

A battle more titanic than any in fantasy literature.

I would say badgers decisevly win, especially if the have honey badgers.

 

[WanderingJester]

I would say badgers decisevly win, especially if the have honey badgers.

Maybe, but those are wannabe badgers

 

[TheAncientCelt]

@WanderingJester


We're going to have to agree to disagree. It'll go in circles for another few posts, but I don't have the energy to keep it up.


Also, I'll try and get the post out tomorrow for the Westeros Tab. @Archon Any chances Arren might reply by then?

 

[Akio]

Quiet

 

[Leusis]

If you want to say that Gregor without his armor is extremely fast, I would point back to Bhullar's example. His profession is literally running up and down a hardwood court at a fast pace to keep up with the game, and while he has a massive amount of muscle mass, he's nowhere near the fastest player in the game. Just because you have more muscle mass, it doesn't make you faster. There's still the virtue of smaller people are more agile and fast than larger people.

As a man who plays sports rather well I'd like to say something. Size means absolutely nothing when it comes to raw speed. Agility, its better to be shorter as in my experience playing football the shorter the player the more likely he is to have incredible acceleration and footwork (not even close to always the case). For example at my fastest I was 6'1 and weighed about 190lbs and could outrun every person on the team depending on the length of the sprint. Anything shorter than 40 yards and my friend Mylan would beat me because he is about 5'8 and weighs 150lbs and he can reach top speed in like 1 step (his acceleration is ridiculous). But his max speed was never higher than mine so I'd destroy him if we raced 100 yards because my longer legs gave me a longer stride so I was going farther with each step and we took steps at about the same pace.


Gregor would likely destroy Oberyn in a foot race of anything longer than 50 or so yards just like I did with Mylan because I was taller. But because Oberyn is shorter and has better acceleration he can change directions quicker and thus dance around Gregor in an enclosed environment such as a ring. I don't know how many of you played and watched a lot of sports so I don't know if this is going over your heads but this is a real life example that I've personally been a part of. I'm also not saying Gregor wasn't agile for his size but due to my larger size in terms of weight and height I was never able to be as agile as Mylan was.

 

[Leusis]

She pulled her husband close for the first time lovingly and kissed him, getting up quickly and leaving the room to follow his instructions, a mere two words coming from her lips "Thank you"

Rowan about to get some booty from his wife finally? The world may never know.

 

[WanderingJester]

As a man who plays sports rather well I'd like to say something. Size means absolutely nothing when it comes to raw speed. Agility, its better to be shorter as in my experience playing football the shorter the player the more likely he is to have incredible acceleration and footwork (not even close to always the case). For example at my fastest I was 6'1 and weighed about 190lbs and could outrun every person on the team depending on the length of the sprint. Anything shorter than 40 yards and my friend Mylan would beat me because he is about 5'8 and weighs 150lbs and he can reach top speed in like 1 step (his acceleration is ridiculous). But his max speed was never higher than mine so I'd destroy him if we raced 100 yards because my longer legs gave me a longer stride so I was going farther with each step and we took steps at about the same pace.
Gregor would likely destroy Oberyn in a foot race of anything longer than 50 or so yards just like I did with Mylan because I was taller. But because Oberyn is shorter and has better acceleration he can change directions quicker and thus dance around Gregor in an enclosed environment such as a ring. I don't know how many of you played and watched a lot of sports so I don't know if this is going over your heads but this is a real life example that I've personally been a part of. I'm also not saying Gregor wasn't agile for his size but due to my larger size in terms of weight and height I was never able to be as agile as Mylan was.

I agree with most of your points. I'm more referencing to the fact that Kyrie Irving would be able to dance around, say, Yao Ming, even though he technically has more muscle mass on his body than the point guard. So comparing similarly Obreyn and Gregor, who I estimate at least upper 300 to 400 pounds, I think (reaction) speed wise, Obreyn's got a up on Gregor.

 

[Akio]

Rowan about to get some booty from his wife finally? The world may never know.

Probably not xD she just left the room

 

[WanderingJester]

Rowan about to get some booty from his wife finally? The world may never know.

Forget dragons hatching. The moment when magic returns to the world is when Agnes finally lets Rowan join her in the bedroom.