2nd Ed Monkey Leap Technique

P

Persell

Ten Thousand Club
4tt3nt10n Pl4y3rs:


t3h h4x:


Monkey Leap Technique and Lightning Speed both cost 3 motes and last for a scene. Their minimums are similar and almost negligible, but Monkey Leap Technique requires a lower Athletics, so I'm going to say it's cheaper. It also has no prerequisite charms, while Lightning Speed has one.


With Lightning Speed you can move Dex + Ath + bonuses - penalties yards per tick (p. 224). With Monkey Leap you can jump instead (p. 223), and your jumping distance is doubled. Your natural horizontal jumping distance is (Str + Ath + dice bonuses - penalties) x 2 (p. 127).


So Lightning Speed lets you move Attribute + Ability yards per turn, with the potential to about double that using Excellency. Monkey Leap Technique lets you move Attribute + Ability x 3 (or 4, depending on your interpretation of the way the doubling stacks). With Excellencies, (I assume) you can increase your Attribute + Ability before the doublings are applied.


So you can either Lightning Speed about 6-12 yards per tick, or Monkey Leap 18-36 yards (or 24-48 yards with the more generous interpretation). The shorter distance costs twice as many build points. And it requires you to move along the ground. So Lightning Speed's less than 1/4 as tempting as Monkey Leap...


--


Our house rule is that Monkey Leap lets you leap around at normal jumping range, and doubles the distance of jumps using a miscellaneous action. It's still significantly more bang for the buck than Lightning Speed, so I suspect we'll tweak around its cost.
 
* slaps BurningPalm around with a large trout for daring to use leetspeak in civilized company.... Stillborn and Lotus excluded
 
First off, to address the doubling issue, I don't believe 2nd Ed has changed 1st Ed's interpretation about stacking 2x modifiers--so yes, 3x is correct for Monkey Leap Technique.


 Next, the values given for Lightning Speed are per tick, whereas MLT is per action.


 So, the comparison for the 3-tick action:


MLT: (Str + Ath + mods) x 3


LS: (Dex + Ath + mods) x 3


 And this is just for a move action; one can dash with LS:


LS (dashing): (Dex + Ath + 6 + mods) x 3


 Still think MLT is much better than LS?
 
First off' date=' to address the doubling issue, I don't believe 2nd Ed has changed 1st Ed's interpretation about stacking 2x modifiers--so yes, 3x is correct for Monkey Leap Technique.[/quote']
Thing is, MLT doubles your jumping distance. And that horizontal distance is calculated as Str+Athx2. So it's not really doubling the same quantity twice; it's calculating a quantity then doubling it.

Next' date=' the values given for Lightning Speed are [b']per tick,[/b] whereas MLT is per action.
 So, the comparison for the 3-tick action:
Click to expand...
Move actions have a speed of 0, not 3 (Core2: 145). Both MLT and LS enhance move actions.
Click to expand...
 
BurningPalm said:
Thing is, MLT doubles your jumping distance. And that horizontal distance is calculated as Str+Athx2. So it's not really doubling the same quantity twice; it's calculating a quantity then doubling it.
Click to expand...
 Well, one can also say that vertical jumps are calculated, and horizontal jumps are double the calculated value.


 I think that 2x + 2x = 3x is Exalted, and not just some aspect of 3rd Ed D&D I'm confusing it with.

BurningPalm said:
Move actions have a speed of 0, not 3 (Core2: 145). Both MLT and LS enhance move actions.
Click to expand...
 Noted, and point conceded.  Speaking of which, how many move actions can one string together in 2nd Ed?
 
how many move actions can one string together in 2nd Ed?
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You get one free move action each tick, regardless of whose action is happening and regardless of how long it is until your next action, as long as you're not inactive.


That is, each tick, everyone can move their normal move distance as long as nothing's immoblilised them. So most people move 1-5 yards per second.
 
I was thinking today that making it so each leap takes two ticks could be really cool. So it does move you three or four times as fast, but it does so in inconveniently large chunks. That's more the sort of thing I expect from a first-tier charm. Then there's also a reason to have Lightning Speed going simultaneously.
 
Another old thread for me to jack, so my apologies, but I'm confused with the wording on Monkey Leap Technique and Soaring Crane Leap.  Both say that the character can jump using a movement action rather than a jump action, with a bonus to distance, whether it be doubled in the case of MLT, or multiplied by five, a la SCL.


What I don't understand though is this:  If a character uses either of these Charms, then the speed value will be better, due to the movement action, but will the distance be worse, since movement actions cover less distance than jump actions?


Or am I missing something here?


~FC.
 
I had assumed that the jump was of normal length, as it's a jump, but the speed and DV penalty are those of a Move action (ie 0,0). The above math is based on that assumption.


However, Soaring Crane Leap aside, making it so that MLT lets you jump your normal move distance would, I think, fix the problems I brought up. So your normal move actions can be leaps, giving you no distance increase but allowing you to clear obstacles up to your move distance in height without having to take other actions or rolls. And the charm would double the distance of the jumps you take using leap actions. That sounds to me like a fair sort of charm to get for that quantity of XP and motes.


As for Soaring Crane, it's uber enough (Ath 4, build 2 ("build" is a term I use to indicate how many charms into a tree it is)) for me to think it's fine for it to mean "until your next action, every tick you can jump your normal distance times 5".


0.0 Solars rule OK!
 
BurningPalm said:
However, Soaring Crane Leap aside, making it so that MLT lets you jump your normal move distance would, I think, fix the problems I brought up. So your normal move actions can be leaps, giving you no distance increase but allowing you to clear obstacles up to your move distance in height without having to take other actions or rolls. And the charm would double the distance of the jumps you take using leap actions. That sounds to me like a fair sort of charm to get for that quantity of XP and motes.
Click to expand...
Soooooooo....


Instead of taking a 5 speed jumping action, where I could leap vertically (Strength + Athletics) yards and double that horizontally, I can use MLT and leap in any direction (Dexterity x2) yards per tick, with a speed equal to the amount of ticks I use in one action, for the rest of the scene.


Is that right?


~FC.  :?
 
I'm not sure where this Dexterity x 2 business comes from. I was suggesting that you jump your normal move distance each tick. Most people move Dexterity yards each tick. I'm suggesting that you should jump your normal move distance each tick, and double normal leaping distance with a speed 5 leap action.


None of this fancy speed calculations. Just like normal moves, Dex yards each tick, only it's jumping, not jogging.


MLT Solar with a Dex of 1 :lol:
 
All right, you guys confused the hell out of me, so what I did was I found the equations for jumping, moving, and dashing and figured out how far they can go and how many ticks it takes.  


Jumping - (Str+Ath)x2 yards horizontally, 5 ticks


Move - Dex yards, 0 ticks


Dash - (Dex+6-penalties) yards per tick, 3 ticks


And then I applied what the charms do to those equations.  I am assuming that MLT triples rather than quadruples the distance.


Monkey Leap Tech (Jump) - allows one to move (Str+Ath)x3 yards horizontally at 0 ticks


Lightning Speed (Move) - Dex+Athletics yards per tick, 0 ticks


Lightning Speed (Dash) - (Dex+Athletics+6-penalties) yards per tick, 3 ticks


So assuming a Str 5, Dex 5, Athletics 5 character, here's the sum


Monkey Leap Tech (Jump) - 30 yards horizontally at 0 ticks


Lightning Speed (Move) - 10 yards per tick, 0 ticks


Lightning Speed (Dash) - 16 yards per tick over 3 ticks for a maximum of 48 yards, 3 ticks
 
All right.  I think I've finally got this figured out.  Monkey Leap Technique triples your horizontal jump distance and makes jumping a 0 tick move action.  This means that you can jump and then perform another action.  The speed of this second action determines when your character can make another action.  So a character using the same stats as I stated above can attack and jump 30 yards in the same action and do it again a number of ticks later according to the weapon's speed.


However, attacking isn't the only thing that character could do.  He could jump 30 yards as a move action and then jump another 30 yards as a miscellaneous action with a speed of 5.  This means the character could jump 60 yards every 5 ticks.  So here's a little chart that compares the distance one can go jumping with MLT every 5 ticks and dashing with LS every 3 ticks.


Tick     MLT          LS


0         60 yrds     48 yrds


1


2


3                         96 yrds


4


5          120 yrds


6                         142 yrds


7


8


9                         190 yrds


10         180 yrds


11


12                         238 yrds


13


14


15         240 yrds   286 yrds


This shows that even though MLT does allow someone to jump farther than someone with LS can run at first, it takes longer for him to do the jump than for the person with LS to dash.  So, no, Lightning Speed is actually good for something.  One of them is outrunning a guy with Monkey Leap Technique who's trying to catch up with him to attack.


Edit: I charted to see if a Solar with MLT who wears jade bracers and wields a jade reaper daiklaive could jump 30 yrds and attack every 2 ticks could catch up with a Solar with LS.  He can't.
 
you're forgetting that in ddition to the "move action" jump and the jump action jump, the MLT user can also "move jump" every tick just like a normal move action. So rather than covering 120 yards after 5 ticks, the MLT Solar would cover that distance after two ticks.


There was a post somewhere concerning this particular misinterpretation: it's not rigorously accurate for the rulebook to say that a Move action has a speed of 0, because it doesn't work like a normal action with a speed rating. Instead, Move actions occur for every character every tick unless they're immobilized or inactive. they do not need to be flurried or otherwise have actions devoted to them.


(yes, I do think it's possible to flurry a leap and a dash and go LEAPDASH dash dash dash dash next action)
 
Hmmm.  You're right in that you could just jump every tick.  Maybe a good way to balance it out would be to have Monkey Leap Technique allow one to jump vertically (Str+Athletics)x2 and jump horizontally (Str+Athletics)x4, but ignore the ruling that allows one to jump as a move action.
 
If you look at what Rebecca Borgstrom says on Exalted Wiki (I should have a link somewhere... aah, there it is, near the bottom of the page: http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php/Second_Edition_Core/FAQ) then it could be interpretted that it is a "normal" action (she is still a bit unclear, but that could just be me), meaning you cannot jump on every tick reflexively - but that it is a normal action with speed 0 and -0 DV penalty. If that is true, it is still incredibly cool for very little essence and min's, but not grotesque.


- Lauge Perto
 
With reference to the "doubling/stacking" issue:


The distance you can travel in a move action is apparently "dex" yards, and it's a speed 0 reflexive manouver requiring no action.


The distance you can travel in a jump is (Strength+Athletics)X2, as a standard speed 5 miscellaneous action.


However, the "X2" is not a doubling effect, it's part of your static "jump" value: It's not something you've applied as a bonus, which is what the stacking rules apply to. Thus, monkey leap technique means that you now Jump (Strength+Athletics)X4.


If you were to apply another doubling effect to this, you'd end up with a standard stack to the effect: rather than doubling the doubled static value, it would add the static value again, so it would become:


(Strength+Athletics)X6


As to the uses of the charms? Meh. I dunno.


Jumping - (Str+Ath)x2 yards horizontally, 5 ticks


Move - Dex yards, 0 ticks
 
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