2E sorcery now has a catch?

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X-Salted

Bust :(
I'm planning to play a Twilight in my friend's upcoming game and I intend to take sorcery. In 1E all you had to do was complete some "quests" and have sufficient essence and occult skill to learn each circle. According to my friend that in 2E you need to sacrifice something important in exchange for the knowledge. I don't have the 2E book yet nor have I read it extensively. Can someone confirm if my friend didn't misinterpret it?
 
I'm planning to play a Twilight in my friend's upcoming game and I intend to take sorcery. In 1E all you had to do was complete some "quests" and have sufficient essence and occult skill to learn each circle. According to my friend that in 2E you need to sacrifice something important in exchange for the knowledge. I don't have the 2E book yet nor have I read it extensively. Can someone confirm if my friend didn't misinterpret it?
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That was true in 1E. Check the overly long section in Savant & Sorcerer about Celestial Initiation. Part of one of the quests was sacrificing something.
 
That's correct, however, you can always start with sorcerery and have the quest take place in your backstory... and whatever you sacrifice isn't really needed, y'know...
 
yes.


thats repeated for each initiation into higher circles, actualy.


the examples are thus


A finger for terrestial circle


Sanity for celestial.


Your one true love for solar.


unless you want to emphasize sorcerry as something privileged and mystical... I think its ok for a ST to deemphasize this, especialy if he doesnt want a macabre taste to his game.


(OOC: IF any of my players want sorcerry however, in my half caste game , in spite of it not otherwise being a macabre game I DO intend, to WHACK Them with the quests etc one wanted to START as a sorcerer!!)
 
I see where they're coming from with the whole "rites of initiation" thing with Sorcery, but frankly it doesn't tickle me, and never has. I ignore it completely.


In a game where massive power is given to a character through Exaltation with no effort at all on their part, why should learning to cast spells be such a huge trial?


-S
 
Stillborn said:
In a game where massive power is given to a character through Exaltation with no effort at all on their part, why should learning to cast spells be such a huge trial?
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Especially since sorcery is a Yozi plot anyway.
 
Oh hoh.. our Pteroc didn't see this one.


I reference for you the description of "Mara, demon of the second circle" and the backstory of Brigid, specifically the part where she wept for her love into a still lake and saw a shining comet in the sky...
 
Yeah man, sorcery is a Primordial device cleverly given unto Creation after their fall. He who tempts with power will overcome sooner or later. It's not an idea really, check the book and look toward Dukantha, hmmm, wonder why the DB knows all three circles...hmmm.


The Exalts didn't make sorcery, they found it.
 
I'm not entirely certain of this, but I remember Autochthonians book referring to Creation's Sorcery as "dirty Yozi tricks." A reason why the Alchemicals have Weavings instead of Sorcery, I believe.
 
sssssz said:
I'm not entirely certain of this
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It's right there, if you look. They've done everything but come out an explicitly say it.


-S
 
well I dont see it as that bad if I choose not to portray things that way even if you have what could be interputed as proof of it.


but anyway yes you can skip over the tests if you want to but I like sorcerers who feel isolated from, and maybe a little better then, other exalts.
 
Yea, I think the power of sorcery should be portrayed fully. Even for Solars, a terrestrial spell can accomplish incredible feats and can overcome some of their greatest limitations. If a solar wants that kind of power, or anyone else, they have to work and sacrifice for it.


Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone, ever, have sorcery? Why wouldn't every single Dragonblood have access to spells that dwarf any other power they could bring to bear? Because for dragonbloods, sorcery is overwhelmingly powerful.


And as to the Yozi tricks: it might be factual but you don't have to use it. Nothing has to be used. I just like these complicated little background nuances of the setting, and I like the fact that the Yozis seem to have it all in hand, even in their prison...
 
Just to add further credence to the Sorcery is the Yozi's argument:


One of the best sources of sorcerous knowledge is the broken winged crane. The book can teach any spell from any circlem it doesnt really get much more comprehensive than that, and the BWC is basically the Yozi bible.
 
Samiel said:
Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone, ever, have sorcery? Why wouldn't every single Dragonblood have access to spells that dwarf any other power they could bring to bear? Because for dragonbloods, sorcery is overwhelmingly powerful.
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Well, in all fairness, sorcery is pretty fricken exp point heavy even without extra trials to go through.  I personally get a kick out of the notion of trials, as it adds complexity and the savory flavor of loss that you just can't get with the low-sacrifice alternatives even though they advertise that they taste the same.  I know the difference and so do my players.


The problem I have is that while I like the notion, I don't want to derail my plot in order to delve into this one idea fully.  I also don't want to tell a player that they can't have something because I don't have the time to dream up a quest that would consume the lifespan of most mortals.  I also dont want to force the player to have to decide between their character and the plot.  In most scenarios where a character advances I have a brief interlude that explains things or I try my best to forecast when a player will be making the jump up the sorcery ladder and make sure that the main plot has a convenient tie in.


As far as the Yozi plot via sorcery, I've had this quote that kinda sums up my whole attitude about Exalted, but I've waited for the right time to unveil it:


"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster."  - Frank Herbert


So yeah, sorcery is disasterous, yozi plot or no; with the great curse, it's amazing that creation didn't collapse BEFORE the usurpation.
 
Battousai said:
One of the best sources of sorcerous knowledge is the broken winged crane. The book can teach any spell from any circle; it doesnt really get much more comprehensive than that, and the BWC is basically the Yozi bible.
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I made this mistake when I first looked at it also: the BWC can't teach any spell, it can teach any sorcery charm. This is still massively powerful, as normally Solars must embark on a truly epic quest of epicness to learn Solar sorcery. However, given that one needs to summon a demon to teach the last charm, you'd be beholden to someone anyway.


However, although the BWC can't teach spells, it can be used to summon demons who can. Again, they're summoned freely, so there's no control, but you can do it.


A final problem with the BWC is the massive social attack: open that book and the first line is a 300-success unnatural persuasion attempt, guaranteed. See those solar linguistics charms? See their cheese? The third-circle demons have that and so much more, so you're better off not reading if you like player-controlled characters, unless you've got some perfect mental defences.
 
Sanity for celestial.
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Oh, great. So now you have a Sorcerer of terrible might, who is also insane? The sacrifice as such, I have no problem with. It serves a function. But insanity?


From a pedagogical standpoint, that's seems pretty stupid. The Yozi (hrm. Maybe the Neverborn rather...) might chatter with glee at the prospect of such a Sorcerer, but that was hardly the intent of the Salinan working. Wasn't the point of the sacrifice meant to function as a balance and a way to ensure the steadfastness of the initiate?
 
See, I always thought of the sacrificing stuff as a much more personal lvel, varying from person to person. Sacrificing your love to someone you truly care, throwing of worries of the mortal world. "Sacrifice" also need not be taken in a negative way. Perhaps you have to sacrifice your fears to be able to advance...
 
Solfi said:
Sanity for celestial.
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Oh, great. So now you have a Sorcerer of terrible might, who is also insane? The sacrifice as such, I have no problem with. It serves a function. But insanity?


From a pedagogical standpoint, that's seems pretty stupid. The Yozi (hrm. Maybe the Neverborn rather...) might chatter with glee at the prospect of such a Sorcerer, but that was hardly the intent of the Salinan working. Wasn't the point of the sacrifice meant to function as a balance and a way to ensure the steadfastness of the initiate?
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That was intended as an example of the scale of the sacrifice, not the standard sacrifice itself. I would say that few sacrifice their sanity, as that is a difficult conscious choice to make, and the sacrifice is always a conscious choice.


For interesting sacrifices though, I can see things like:


* Sorcerors sacrificing their lower souls, and gaining the "nightmares" flaw, representing their lessened drive rather than actual nightmares


* Sorcerors losing a loved one in a pivotal "it's her or the power, exalt! Which will you choose!" moment


* Sorcerors ditching an allegiance to their country or previous tie due to the promise of power. Perhaps they mean to return to their house with their newfound might, but they know in their hearts it is not so, and that they forever diverge from such small-time concerns.


* Sacrificing body parts might seem mundane or simple, but losing your genitals is more than a blow to your sexuality to a dynast; it more or less makes you a social pariah forever, no matter your power. So that demon's offer might sound sweet, but it mightn't just be a finger he takes. Sensory organs are good for this too, of course.


* Sacrificing one's humanity for the art is a nice theme: the character learns at the last hurdle that by initiating him/herself, (s)he distances further from normal people further than can be accounted for by good social graces. Mechanically, lose a dot of compassion.


The big thing to remember is that the sacrifice is always that: it's not a price, it's a choice that is consciously made to sacrifice something held dear for the promise of great power. When the sorceror gives his firstborn to learn the celestial art, he knows that he either does this, and learns sorcery, or foresakes the chance to learn sorcery forever more.


The finality of failing the test is important in my mind, but I suppose that's down to individual tastes.
 
well I dont see it as that bad if I choose not to portray things that way even if you have what could be interputed as proof of it.
but anyway yes you can skip over the tests if you want to but I like sorcerers who feel isolated from, and maybe a little better then, other exalts.
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interpreted as proof?


try this one


Autochthonians page 148 in the sidebar


"Sorcery, the secret of manipulating creation at its fundamental levels, was practiced by the primordials and given to the Exalted by the Yozis before Autochthon's self imposed exile to the void of Elsewhere."


yozis gave sorcery to exalts, that is fact and canon


the only questiuon is, Yozi plot or gunboat diplomacy?
 
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