2E Sidereal wishlist
- Thread starter wordman
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Quchu
One Thousand Club
I think what he's actually looking for is tangible suggestions for how they should become, not statements about how they should not be.
The Ride tree, for example, is about... eh, how do I put it, "Making things move" or perhaps "moving others". It's more esoteric than I can completely wrap my head around. But anyway, the tree could be fixed so it might entirely hold onto the theme, perhaps by dropping Yellow Path, or maybe it could drop the esoteric theme completely and have new Charms that are more about actually riding than moving, and still stick to the Sidereal theme. Maybe it could have Charms that lets the Sidereal tell the Loom "Hey, uh, my steed was a lot faster than this but some glitch in you slowed it down" and accelerate the steed or "What the hell do you mean I'm still here? I rode all the way here way before. There absolutely is no way such an awesome horseman like I could not make it to the destination in time" and fatefully teleport in a very AKish manner... Or other better Charm ideas in that direction.
Now I'm gonna hope I was not too wrong with the thread's intentions...
The Ride tree, for example, is about... eh, how do I put it, "Making things move" or perhaps "moving others". It's more esoteric than I can completely wrap my head around. But anyway, the tree could be fixed so it might entirely hold onto the theme, perhaps by dropping Yellow Path, or maybe it could drop the esoteric theme completely and have new Charms that are more about actually riding than moving, and still stick to the Sidereal theme. Maybe it could have Charms that lets the Sidereal tell the Loom "Hey, uh, my steed was a lot faster than this but some glitch in you slowed it down" and accelerate the steed or "What the hell do you mean I'm still here? I rode all the way here way before. There absolutely is no way such an awesome horseman like I could not make it to the destination in time" and fatefully teleport in a very AKish manner... Or other better Charm ideas in that direction.
Now I'm gonna hope I was not too wrong with the thread's intentions...
Lord Ben
Elder Member
To rewrite the charm trees to allow them to all fit and make sense and be easy to learn would take many many man hours. Â So unless you want to hire me to write the book I suggest being satisfied with general answers. Âmemesis said:
And generally it just needs to flow better and make more sense in the organizations of the charms.
The Mad hatter
Junior Member
i dont see much that would need fixing with the siddie charm trees, toning down their MA a little would be about all i could see, the main reson is, siddies had built in checks for their power
think about it, you are a master of fate, you are not supposed to exist as far as anyones concerined, hell beyond that you do not exist, rather some random person exists for you, to meanfully interact with the world around you, it required you to don a crafted destiny, to artfically make a persona for the world, a persona that could be shattered by using your powers,
example..
Your a member of the Gold Fraction, within a region still hevly under the dominance of the dragon blooded you need to help show the people that by throwing in with the solars, they can be free of the evils of their ruler, to do so you make yourself into a humble farmer, yet as a farmer while preacing to the people, you come under attack by the dragon blood, now if you wanted to undo all the work you did and expose yourself, you could knock the silly little terrestial around, but you cant, you break your desteny and everyone would forget, you stip it away and there is now a issue with fate that the bronze fraction might look into (suddenly no one was there but no one took down the dragon blooded), so instend you must defend yourself from the terrestial as a farmer using only the small personal essence pool at your disposal.
times like that things like duck fate and avodaince kata are really helpful
but say your not having to be undercover, you STILL cant make full use of your powers, because you still have to cloak yourself from everyones prying eyes, your a chosen of endings and somone must die, they managed to avoid that fate before so now its up to you, you could walk right in slaughtering gaurds left and right and take the geezer out your damn self, but thats too messy, gonna be qustions asked, so instend you cease to exist, no longer are you there, your in the building but your hiding in the shadows, nessled between the dust bunnys eating the scraps of his table, waiting for a moment to strike and make it seem natural, or if their death was to cause somthing, make it so their death still causes it
things like that is why i never saw a problem with the sidreal charms, because as amazing as they seemed, you could never really get full use out of them except in a few rare cirmanstances, where you wouldnt really have the backing of a full circle of friends to watch your back (demon hunting anyone?)
Putting mind controling ablitys also made sense to me, as the secrect masters of creation (in their own minds) the sidreals controlling others made sense, granted they should have been tweaked a little to provide some defense agenst it, mabey like the fair fokes glamors, so mortals, as always stand little chance, but other exalted and even a rare few god bloods could smack you up side the head for trying such a thing
some charm placments seemed odd untill you looked at things in a sidways manner sorta, kinda like mage, thinking liner dosent go anywere, with the craft charms affecting other things it was because you were crafing fate to tag it so that would happen for you, you were still crafting, you where doing it for your paticular style, every achion a sidreal made in creation was in its own ways crafting, since they had to be mindful of fate and where always having to set it right, dodge charm in preformance, by dancing your moving and contorting your body already, avoiding blows while contonuing to dance isnt excatly out of the ballpark (tho i think other exalts should have gotten it as well)
all of their charms can be looked at in manners like that, it makes sidreal games a little harder on ST's and players since you have to keep track of more, but the possablitys they offer and the limits they can have (as long as your willign to use them) can make it a fun and rewarding game (ever try to move dynatic houses in the power base of the realm, or the achual phsycial house itself? not as easy as it sounds, but still can be fun)
every system alwasys has the potenchial for abuse, and i admit the sidreal system was ripe for it, but that where personal responsiblity and commen sense comes in
just my 2 cents
go on you may now all flame my horrid spelling/grammer and support of a game most everyone hates...
think about it, you are a master of fate, you are not supposed to exist as far as anyones concerined, hell beyond that you do not exist, rather some random person exists for you, to meanfully interact with the world around you, it required you to don a crafted destiny, to artfically make a persona for the world, a persona that could be shattered by using your powers,
example..
Your a member of the Gold Fraction, within a region still hevly under the dominance of the dragon blooded you need to help show the people that by throwing in with the solars, they can be free of the evils of their ruler, to do so you make yourself into a humble farmer, yet as a farmer while preacing to the people, you come under attack by the dragon blood, now if you wanted to undo all the work you did and expose yourself, you could knock the silly little terrestial around, but you cant, you break your desteny and everyone would forget, you stip it away and there is now a issue with fate that the bronze fraction might look into (suddenly no one was there but no one took down the dragon blooded), so instend you must defend yourself from the terrestial as a farmer using only the small personal essence pool at your disposal.
times like that things like duck fate and avodaince kata are really helpful
but say your not having to be undercover, you STILL cant make full use of your powers, because you still have to cloak yourself from everyones prying eyes, your a chosen of endings and somone must die, they managed to avoid that fate before so now its up to you, you could walk right in slaughtering gaurds left and right and take the geezer out your damn self, but thats too messy, gonna be qustions asked, so instend you cease to exist, no longer are you there, your in the building but your hiding in the shadows, nessled between the dust bunnys eating the scraps of his table, waiting for a moment to strike and make it seem natural, or if their death was to cause somthing, make it so their death still causes it
things like that is why i never saw a problem with the sidreal charms, because as amazing as they seemed, you could never really get full use out of them except in a few rare cirmanstances, where you wouldnt really have the backing of a full circle of friends to watch your back (demon hunting anyone?)
Putting mind controling ablitys also made sense to me, as the secrect masters of creation (in their own minds) the sidreals controlling others made sense, granted they should have been tweaked a little to provide some defense agenst it, mabey like the fair fokes glamors, so mortals, as always stand little chance, but other exalted and even a rare few god bloods could smack you up side the head for trying such a thing
some charm placments seemed odd untill you looked at things in a sidways manner sorta, kinda like mage, thinking liner dosent go anywere, with the craft charms affecting other things it was because you were crafing fate to tag it so that would happen for you, you were still crafting, you where doing it for your paticular style, every achion a sidreal made in creation was in its own ways crafting, since they had to be mindful of fate and where always having to set it right, dodge charm in preformance, by dancing your moving and contorting your body already, avoiding blows while contonuing to dance isnt excatly out of the ballpark (tho i think other exalts should have gotten it as well)
all of their charms can be looked at in manners like that, it makes sidreal games a little harder on ST's and players since you have to keep track of more, but the possablitys they offer and the limits they can have (as long as your willign to use them) can make it a fun and rewarding game (ever try to move dynatic houses in the power base of the realm, or the achual phsycial house itself? not as easy as it sounds, but still can be fun)
every system alwasys has the potenchial for abuse, and i admit the sidreal system was ripe for it, but that where personal responsiblity and commen sense comes in
just my 2 cents
go on you may now all flame my horrid spelling/grammer and support of a game most everyone hates...
The Mad hatter
Junior Member
i dont rember putting that in, well ok no i usasuly do for spelling, almost my way of trying to be funny and apologise about it, huh, musta still been tired and irritated, sorry bout thatSafim said:
tho while at work i relised somthing, while sidreals and the madiens and fate itself serve as a check to sidreal powers, their half casts could be extreamly problomatic, think about it, a star touched who lived long enough and had a prent who taught them enough, wouldnt nessarly have those checks there to hold them back, same gos for a elcipse or moonshadow cast, those three i fear with sidreal charms
edit--
Back to the subject of liner charms, the problem with sidreal charms is they dont seem to match up when you take literal outlooks on things, ride charms are for transportation right? but controlling a persons mind is also a ride charm, how? sidways thinking... you control your mount to take you where you want to go, by simlar vine your transffering that sort of control over to being used on a person, If solars represent the Pinnical of a ablity, Sidreals represent the Metaphore (mabey, might not be right word, tired after all) of a ablity, so while the solar becomes a master horsman, the sidreals becomes a diffrent sort of master horsman
the same sort of problem is in Mage the Ascension, most people look right at Mind magic to mess with somones emoshions, but... Though Life Magic you can affect their hormons and the like to affect emoshions, though entropy you can inflict good and bad luck witch can cause mood changes, and though sprit you could summon a sprit of a emoshion and tag them to the person, each works fine, but any way besides mind magic most people dont like because it steps on the toes of other things, ultiamatly what your doing is the same thing, same effect, but diffrent ways to go about it...
also, back to the subject of power checks for Sidreal charms, rember, beings outside of fate are somwhat reselient to siddie charms (well some), also they and essence weilders can mess with fate in nasty ways, and large uses of essence will defently do so, so for the sidreals, trying to keep down the amount of power they use helps cut down on their own work (or punishment from aggravated elders having to clean up after them), likwise unlike any other exalt type (secpt possably alchis), Sidreals Bosses DO look in on them, the madiens are the least addicted to the games, and with only 100 sidreals (we can assume only about 50 at any givin time are activly working, the rest are in training/ being reborn/ fallen in with enemys), its not hard for them to spot their chosen, Sidreals time is spent about 1/3 in heaven attending their job, 1/3 in creation attending their job, and 1/3 personal time (usally for your fraction), meaning you dont wind up with alot of time to abuse your powers, since on the clock you damn better be sure you dont cause to many problems,
about the only time i can see the real inbalance of sidreal charms is in 3 senatios..
1. Bad player, they make siddie for bad ass powers, ingore the built in checks, (hopfully ST drops heavens displesure like a ton of bricks on them)
2. ST uses Sidreal for final boss type of guy, thus since their life is possably about to be cut short, and its a ST char, whats the point in holding back
3. When a powerful demon/Fae/Ghost gets into creation and MUST be stopped, when raiding the wyld/Malfease/Underworld (as some sidreal demon hunters are known to do), or when there is a threat to creation so big subtly is out the window and thousand forged dragons and on the move, and givin the power of some beings and well, creation facing total ruin... a little overpoweredness isnt going to affect much
Otherwise, its make it on your pitful Personal essence pool, and the occisnal bit of perpherial (just enough to avoid breaking your destny (or none at all if your destny isnt a sidreal) and cut a little loose in heaven (where your watched constently), malfease/wyld/underwold (where you need to cut loose to make it)
i dunno, i think ive gotten long winded, but its my attempt to valadate the sidreal's ways of doing things since i liked the book, and hopfully mabey even convert somone.....
join usssssss
Hanat-Osul
Elder Member
I'd like to thank everyone who posted on this thread providing much more substantive, intelligent conversation in this single thread than I've seen on this entire site for several weeks, and specifically Wordman, Memesis and MadHatter for their insights into the Sidereal mindset.
The problem I think most of you suffer from when you say, "[sidereal Charm X] is broken" is tunnel vision. You are seeing the mechanics as the final measure of a Charm's power. If your Storyteller's imagination is so lacking that any scenario she writes can be defeated by you saying, "I spend some motes and do X," you should find someone else to run your games.
I ran a Solar 1E game for three years, and over the course of that time my PCs became pretty powerful. Sometimes, I put checks on their power by giving them physically powerful enemies to face; once or twice, this worked. But I kept their characters anxious and unsure by forcing them to deal with the fact that no matter how strong they were, what they did was not necessarily the right thing to do. The Dawn in this group eventually beat most of the enemies I threw at him, but he was so worn down by having to compromise between his personal power and his sense of moral behaviour that he never celebrated his victories for long.
With regard to Avoidance Kata, what this means is that even if your characters don't figure out how to beat it when the dastardly Bronze NPC uses it on them again and again, if your ST is good he will adjust the rest of the story accordingly. Anyone spending time and energy avoiding a beat-down is by necessity spending less time and energy advancing their own plans - which is what Sidereals do. Remember, a Solar has no master and no responsibility to anyone he does not choose. A Sidereal is responsible for the fate of Creation. If a Solar fucks up his self-appointed task of raising an army to conquer Greyfalls, then
Greyfalls doesn't get conquered and he finds something else to do. Every time a Sidereal fucks up, the Loom of Fate weakens; the cracks in the Yozis' prison widen; the Wyld erodes the borders of the world. Yes, they can pull themselves out of a tight spot in the short term. If this leads, in the long term, to the world falling apart, so fucking what?
That beings with this degree of responsibility have powers that operate in a lateral fashion is not just acceptable, it's essential. The threats they face are not always so concrete as a dagger in the back or the loss of a valued possession; an agent of Fate might face demons who can "stab" his mind, wounding his sense of self, or raksha who can steal his ability to speak. Thus, their Charms are built to address these threats.
As a Storyteller, I have never had a problem with the Sidereal Charms in 1E, or at least no problem so big I couldn't surmount it on the fly. My Sidereal NPCs were quite cognizant of the fact that the Solars had more immediate personal power than they did [except for Lupo], so they maintained the upper hand by witholding knowledge and dictating context. That's how a clever Sidereal operates: without having to resort to direct confrontation. Eyes slideways, spud (to quote Frank Miller).
The problem I think most of you suffer from when you say, "[sidereal Charm X] is broken" is tunnel vision. You are seeing the mechanics as the final measure of a Charm's power. If your Storyteller's imagination is so lacking that any scenario she writes can be defeated by you saying, "I spend some motes and do X," you should find someone else to run your games.
I ran a Solar 1E game for three years, and over the course of that time my PCs became pretty powerful. Sometimes, I put checks on their power by giving them physically powerful enemies to face; once or twice, this worked. But I kept their characters anxious and unsure by forcing them to deal with the fact that no matter how strong they were, what they did was not necessarily the right thing to do. The Dawn in this group eventually beat most of the enemies I threw at him, but he was so worn down by having to compromise between his personal power and his sense of moral behaviour that he never celebrated his victories for long.
With regard to Avoidance Kata, what this means is that even if your characters don't figure out how to beat it when the dastardly Bronze NPC uses it on them again and again, if your ST is good he will adjust the rest of the story accordingly. Anyone spending time and energy avoiding a beat-down is by necessity spending less time and energy advancing their own plans - which is what Sidereals do. Remember, a Solar has no master and no responsibility to anyone he does not choose. A Sidereal is responsible for the fate of Creation. If a Solar fucks up his self-appointed task of raising an army to conquer Greyfalls, then
Greyfalls doesn't get conquered and he finds something else to do. Every time a Sidereal fucks up, the Loom of Fate weakens; the cracks in the Yozis' prison widen; the Wyld erodes the borders of the world. Yes, they can pull themselves out of a tight spot in the short term. If this leads, in the long term, to the world falling apart, so fucking what?
That beings with this degree of responsibility have powers that operate in a lateral fashion is not just acceptable, it's essential. The threats they face are not always so concrete as a dagger in the back or the loss of a valued possession; an agent of Fate might face demons who can "stab" his mind, wounding his sense of self, or raksha who can steal his ability to speak. Thus, their Charms are built to address these threats.
As a Storyteller, I have never had a problem with the Sidereal Charms in 1E, or at least no problem so big I couldn't surmount it on the fly. My Sidereal NPCs were quite cognizant of the fact that the Solars had more immediate personal power than they did [except for Lupo], so they maintained the upper hand by witholding knowledge and dictating context. That's how a clever Sidereal operates: without having to resort to direct confrontation. Eyes slideways, spud (to quote Frank Miller).
The Mad hatter
Junior Member
Haku1
Ze Hamster of Lurkdom
*coughs*
Yeah... Madhatter seems to have nailed the issue on the head.
I'll also note that an Exalted ST HAS to be able to adapt to the power levels of his or her players. Because otherwise, you're just asking for a beating... and no, I don't mean metaphorically.
I've run solar games with Silly XP levels (1000+), and I've run godblooded games.
And yes, Sidereal charm effects have to be watched out, and yes, they CAN be abused. But as Mad Hatter points out, there ARE safeguards and things you have to watch out for.
Yeah... Madhatter seems to have nailed the issue on the head.
I'll also note that an Exalted ST HAS to be able to adapt to the power levels of his or her players. Because otherwise, you're just asking for a beating... and no, I don't mean metaphorically.
I've run solar games with Silly XP levels (1000+), and I've run godblooded games.
And yes, Sidereal charm effects have to be watched out, and yes, they CAN be abused. But as Mad Hatter points out, there ARE safeguards and things you have to watch out for.
I'd like to say 'thank you' to the genius that placed those words on screen for other players to read. Â For quite some time the players I know thought the Sidereals were incredibly broken never understanding that if you play up to thier arrogance (either by ignorance or careful planning) then really they are just as on par as any other Exalt.
Careful planning and proper combos can make any NPC or PC seem far more powerful than they really are (as my Night Caste Solar Dracian used to say as he conned his way through almost anything "It's all in how you present it. Â Sure, he could of kicked my ass, but there was no reason to let him know that."). Â All the trees for every Exalt are fairly balanced, I've never really had any problems with them.
The only charm I've ever had issues with was that damn Abyssal one that severs your limbs and there is pretty much jack-all you can do about it. Â As long as you take a box something is lying on the floor... I hate that charm.
Flyck
Senior Member
Ahh, quit your whining and go to lookshy to get your clockwork replacement... panzee.Dracian said:
memesis
One Thousand Club
People have been saying it for quite some time.Dracian said:
You don't even need to factor in their arrogance. Â The very first time that a Sidereal pulls this shit, you will know that they have that capability. All YOU must supply is the ability to force a second encounter.Dracian said:
G
Guest
Guest
I know what I want from 2E Sidereal charms.
That they be clear enough that we don't get 10 pages of arguments over one or two. Â :lol:
That they be clear enough that we don't get 10 pages of arguments over one or two. Â :lol:
Flyck
Senior Member
Those aren't paragraphs. Â Those are sentences.Safim said:
G
Guest
Guest
I can be wise every once in a while. Â Don't tell anyone, you'll ruin my image. Â :?Safim said:
memesis
One Thousand Club
I guess I'd be more impressed if:Safim said:
(a) people actually read the rules concerning what they were arguing about (e.g., one of the Charms in question (Avoidance Kata) explicitly says when you can use it, and people just didn't read that), and
(b) people didn't spend 10 pages of arguments complaining about anything and everything else in the system.
Seriously.