2E Sidereal wishlist

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Its cool.

 

[memesis]

I apologise, I lost my temper. I wasn't trying to be witty/snarky, I was simply trying to point out how annoying everyone was being. nice Charm, Memesis!

"People have some very emotional reactions to Sidereals" also applies to me, but I certainly try to justify my positions.  I'm sure wordman will appreciate whatever constructive posting can happen on this thread, whatever the poster's level of Sidereal experience may be.

 

[Persell]

He better should considering he probably has no experience with a full group of siddies of his own ^^

 

[wordman]

"People have some very emotional reactions to Sidereals" also applies to me...

My emotional reactions aren't really because of sidereals, per se. Contrary to current evidence, I really do try to be logical and helpful. On rare occasions, I even succeed. There are two things, however, that cause me to completely lose it:

1. People making vehement, repeated, scathing rants based on "facts" that are provably wrong. As a contrived example: someone spewing vitriol over and over again, louder and louder, all based on the assumption that nine is prime number, no matter how often it is pointed out that nine is not a prime number.
   
2. People making vehement, repeated, scathing rants against something, without any attempt whatsoever to offer a solution.

In spite of repeated attempts to stop myself, both of these drive me up a freaking wall and turn me into a rabid, psychopathic prick. The topic of sidereals, for whatever reason, often features both of these behaviors at the same time. And, consequently, drives me bat-shit crazy.


This particular thread was a misguided attempt to grow beyond problem #2, which I managed to derail by freaking out starting in page 3, then really fucking it up in page 4 by turning it into the one thing I really didn't want it to be: the same old argument about fucking Avoidance Kata. My fault.


So, my apologies for aggravating people and generally prickly behavior.

 

[Persell]

Never apology for standing up for something which you think is right.

 

[wordman]

Never apologize for standing up for something which you think is right.

I don't think allowing myself to become ape-shit and rude over other people's comments is right. Hence: apologies.

 

[Flagg]

On a somewhat tangental note: What do you guys think about Eclipses purchasing other Exalt's "special" Charms, such as Terrestrial (Ability) Reinforcement and Essence Auspicious?


AFAIK, there's no canonical prohibition on it, but in the case of Auspicious, things could get severely retarded, given that the Solar dice adding limits are so much higher than the Sidereal ones, and they have a Charm which allows them a huge discount on their existing Excellencies.

 

[memesis]

AFAIK, there's no canonical prohibition on it, but in the case of Auspicious, things could get severely retarded, given that the Solar dice adding limits are so much higher than the Sidereal ones, and they have a Charm which allows them a huge discount on their existing Excellencies.

The simple fix for this (which may already be in place - I'd need to check my books to be sure) is that if you as an Eclipse buy another Exalt's Charm and it interacts with dice caps, those dice caps are those of the other Exalt.  So an Eclipse could buy a Sidereal Charm whose dice cap is the Eclipse's Essence score.  This seems reasonable - you're getting functionality you couldn't get otherwise (presumably - otherwise you'd have just designed a comparable Solar Charm) and you aren't any BETTER with it than the original guy was.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

It would in part depend on whether such charms are compatible with other excellencies. If you can use Essence Auspicious along with the 1st Excellency, then things are certainly going to end up rather over the top. On the other hand, it's quite possible the two will be incompatible, like the 3rd Excellency is with the 1st and 2nd.


At least for now, Eclipses canonically can learn any charm of another type. They've made no mention of special exception in 2E. Does this make Eclipse and Moonshadow characters potentially very powerful and versatile? Yes. Does it make them overpowered? That's a call for your ST. They still wouldn't be capable of ignoring limitations stated in the charm, but we'll have to wait to see if there will be any such.


If you're disallowing Eclipses to learn additional general charms of other Exalt types, are there other charms you're not allowing them to learn? Is Relentless Lunar Fury too Lunar specific to allow? What of the Lunar charms that add Wyld taints to others? After all, the Eclipse genreally doesn't have a spark of the wyld within themself to draw on...

 

[memesis]

At least for now' date=' Eclipses canonically can learn any charm of another type. They've made no mention of special exception in 2E.[/quote']
The "special exception" is to make unlearnable abilities into something that isn't a Charm - which is basically what Lunars did with Knacks. I suspect Sidereals will get something similar with their astrology (which already isn't in Charm form, but eh).

What of the Lunar charms that add Wyld taints to others? After all' date=' the Eclipse genreally doesn't have a spark of the wyld within themself to draw on...[/quote']
Million Dreams stepped hesitantly into the Bordermarches.  He watched the muscular bulk of the Lunar walking confidently ahead of him, reminding himself of the fleeting memories he still possessed, in which a lithe and sensuous woman who bore his mentor's spark shared a bed with him.  He shook himself free of the troubling repercussions, wondering why this Lunar who now called her.. himself Himaka was bothering to teach the Silver Lady's secrets to an Eclipse such as himself.


"We are here because you lack the essence of the Wyld which we have.  To learn the gift you seek, you must open yourself to the Wyld.  You must brave the same risk the Lunars did.  This is not only part of the learning of the Charm - this is a rite of passage.  We shall see if your soul is worthy of the gift I have, or whether.. whether you shall be born anew."


Suddenly Million Dreams understood.  Himaka's teachings would be his undoing, and the Lunar would craft himself a new lover out of what was left of him if the Wyld took him.  His resolve strengthened.  I will gain this knowledge.  I will master this Charm.  I've only just learned to be myself - I will not be anyone else!  With confidence, he nodded and began the long trek into the mouth of madness.

 

[Flagg]

It would in part depend on whether such charms are compatible with other excellencies. If you can use Essence Auspicious along with the 1st Excellency' date=' then things are certainly going to end up rather over the top.[/quote']
The current info on EA does not include any prohibitions.


An Eclipse with EA, First Melee Excellency, and Infinite Melee Mastery, with Dex 5, Melee 5, Essence 4+ and and orichalcum daiklave (for example), could, for 20m and 1WP, generate unlimited 24 die attack pools and +10 die DV bonuses for a scene. That's crazy powerful, but that's Solar power for you.


Now, for 6 motes, the Eclipse could drop the TN for one of those 24 die attacks to 4 (with the appropriate Combo), or for 8 motes and 2 wp, he could get an automatic 24 successes.


Now that I think about it, it's really not that bad. I wasn't considering the fact that the Eclipse must pay double the cost for EA, and would also need to spend an additional WP per action for the Combo.


The other option is to use Melee Essence Flow to avoid having to pay the Combo costs, but that means he'd have to spend 10 motes per attack to double the pool with the First Excellency.


Either scenario is going to get cost prohibitive fast. Even if the Eclipse is a total twink who's purchased Essence Plethora 30 times, he's still going to run out of Willpower fast.


Conclusion: It's actually not a big deal.

 

[wordman]

I wasn't considering the fact that the Eclipse must pay double the cost for EA, and would also need to spend an additional WP per action for the Combo.

In 2E, Eclipses only pay +2 motes per charm, not double cost. The charms still cost twice the xp, though.

 

[Flagg]

Ah. Thanks for the correction.


That does make it more potentially egregious.

 

[wordman]

That does make it more potentially egregious.

I'm not sure, but I think in 1E, they only paid double the mote cost, not double everything. In any case, you're right that willpower will still be the limiting factor.


Typically, the 24 dice attack will get 12 successes. With a TN of 4, you'll get 19.2. If you were to take memesis' advice and only allow the TN reduction on the dice using a sidereal limit, this would leave (I think) 18 dice at TN 4 (the original pool, plus Essence, plus accuracy) and 6 at TN 7. This would give 17.4 average successes. Note that rolling only the 18 die sidereal pool, you'd get 14.4 successes, better than the maxed out solar 24 dice attack w/o TN reduction. Sidereals, of course, would need a combo to do this, while the original 24 dice pool is possible for a solar without one. Using only a base pool of 14 with a TN of 4 (i.e. the same basic attack without dice adding, but with target number reduction), you'd get 11.2 successes. This all assumes, of course, that I'm doing the math right.


One coincidental mathematical oddity: if you roll two dice, the odds of getting exactly one success on those two dice is the same (36%) if the target is 7 or 4. Weird but true.

 

[Vanman]

AFAIK, there's no canonical prohibition on it, but in the case of Auspicious, things could get severely retarded, given that the Solar dice adding limits are so much higher than the Sidereal ones, and they have a Charm which allows them a huge discount on their existing Excellencies.

The simple fix for this (which may already be in place - I'd need to check my books to be sure) is that if you as an Eclipse buy another Exalt's Charm and it interacts with dice caps, those dice caps are those of the other Exalt.  So an Eclipse could buy a Sidereal Charm whose dice cap is the Eclipse's Essence score.  This seems reasonable - you're getting functionality you couldn't get otherwise (presumably - otherwise you'd have just designed a comparable Solar Charm) and you aren't any BETTER with it than the original guy was.

Not sure if this is applicable, but in the Lunar book, on p. 139 in the combo section, the last paragraph of the section, it states: "Eclipse and Moonshadows may learn the Lunar Excellencies, but may not use them to add more than (Attribute) dice individually. Even when using Lunar Charms, characters may not exceed their normal maximum dice from Charms. A Solar using the First Dexterity and Melee Excellencies still cannot add more than (Attribute + Ability) dice to an action."


So if just using the Charm on its own, it's capped by the other Exalt's cap. If used in a combo, normal dice caps apply. Not sure how this works with the TN reducer, though.....

 

[Flagg]

It's not a dice-adder, by any means, so while memesis comment is spot on, it's not really pertinent.

 

[memesis]

A Solar using the First Dexterity and Melee Excellencies still cannot add more than (Attribute + Ability) dice to an action."
So if just using the Charm on its own, it's capped by the other Exalt's cap. If used in a combo, normal dice caps apply. Not sure how this works with the TN reducer, though.....

It means that yes, the fix is already in.


So the general rule is:  For dice caps, each Excellency BY ITSELF follows the rules set out for its owning Exalt type (e.g. Lunar Excellencies add up to Attribute dice, no matter who uses them).  This trend will presumably continue to Sidereals.


And yes, any question about how TN reduction works will probably have to wait for the Sidereal book.

 

[Persell]

Im surprised no brought up the pregog charm that Alchies have. Interpolative Situational Analysis Processor. theres your precog maechanics right there.

 

[wordman]

1. Is this a Charm in theme with the Sidereal nature?
2. What ability does it most logically fall under?

I'd still love to hear people answer these questions.

 

[memesis]

Im surprised no brought up the pregog charm that Alchies have. Interpolative Situational Analysis Processor. theres your precog maechanics right there.

The effect's duration also extends, what, one turn ahead?  Do you consider that acceptable to represent prophecies of any meaningful time span?

 

[Persell]

whoops... ops:  doule checking the charm names, I meant the Anticipatory Simulation Processor. As a ST I would allow this a a Siddie charm, just say they read the flows of fate to see possible futures.

 

[wordman]

Oh and while I have your attention, as you were ignoring my post in the sidereals wishlist. The charmtrees suck. Donkeyballs to be exact.

OK. They suck donkeyballs. The reason I was "ignoring" your post is that its point seemed to be to illustrate the specific ways in which your think sidereal trees are broken. I wasn't asking how you thought they were broken. I am asking how you would fix them.


Your response to this will be "I already told you"; however, saying "they should not do [metaphors] half assed" or "be consequent about being metaphorical" or "keep Borgstrom away from any mechanics" or "say no to powercreep" are only a small step above saying "they should be fixed somehow". Still, such broad suggestions are a step beyond that, which is more than most people offered, so I guess I should count my blessings.


What I'm really after in this thread is exactly how you'd implement your suggestions. If you don't want to go through the trouble, I can understand, but please realize that lack of such effort is why I am "ignoring" such posts: from my point of view, they are not answering my question.

 

[Haku1]

Perhaps, we should take a look at "Exalted : Kawaii Edition" or more specifically, the sidereal equivilant.


They are done tongue in cheek, but they do seem to fit, somewhat, with how to 'fix' sidereal charms.


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... gGoddesses

 

[Persell]

Oh and while I have your attention, as you were ignoring my post in the sidereals wishlist. The charmtrees suck. Donkeyballs to be exact.

OK. They suck donkeyballs. The reason I was "ignoring" your post is that its point seemed to be to illustrate the specific ways in which your think sidereal trees are broken. I wasn't asking how you thought they were broken. I am asking how you would fix them.


Your response to this will be "I already told you"; however, saying "they should not do [metaphors] half assed" or "be consequent about being metaphorical" or "keep Borgstrom away from any mechanics" or "say no to powercreep" are only a small step above saying "they should be fixed somehow". Still, such broad suggestions are a step beyond that, which is more than most people offered, so I guess I should count my blessings.


What I'm really after in this thread is exactly how you'd implement your suggestions. If you don't want to go through the trouble, I can understand, but please realize that lack of such effort is why I am "ignoring" such posts: from my point of view, they are not answering my question.

Yeah and here your thread looses its reason to live, because the short answer is:


Make new charmtrees and do it right this time and the long answer would be to rewrite the complete charms section.

 

[memesis]

Yeah and here your thread looses its reason to live, because the short answer is:
Make new charmtrees and do it right this time and the long answer would be to rewrite the complete charms section.

The thread loses its reason to live if nobody's willing or able to actually answer the question it poses, which this response seems to reinforce.  Oh well.