2E Sidereal wishlist

[wordman]

I'm demonstrating that not only is AK overpowered, it's redundant.

Great. Hooray for you. Now, what do you replace it with in the sidereal Dodge tree? What other changes do you make?

 

[Haku1]

Given that Sidereals can NEVER have any charns other than listed (at least without fellating the ST?), that they have to -arrange- the situation so that their charms ARE applicable?


And how would you model a -precognative- charm for ANY ability?


I'm being serious here. You say that the sidereals should be able to predict the future, I don't disagree. But say Joe Sidereal has the charm to predict the future, -decide- that the risk is too great, and take steps to avoid.


Now... tell me, how would YOU make that charm work, given that you as PCs and STs can not read the future, can not -arrange- die rolls to fall as you wish (at least, one hopes). To -accurately- guage where your actions would lead you.


So, yeah... you activate your charm, but how can you say that the situation warrants it? Or conversely does NOT warrant it?


Let's say, you're about to confront Bob Solar in the Ursuption, you've got your little dragonblooded posse backing you. You go in, daiklaves flashing... only Bob Solar proves stronger than you anticipated, but WAIT, you're a Sidereal, you can PREDICT that BAD THINGS HAPPEN when you jump Bob Solar. So you spend the motes before hand (or is that DURING the fight) and the event doesn't happen (to you). Is that what you're suggesting?


Because if it is, you're talking about what Avoidance Kata is all about and does.


But your suggestion is MORE powerful, it would be universal, as you can now at ANY time say, yeah... this attack/defense method? I don't like it, I activated my super charm earlier before I commit to that, and decide on a DIFFERENT tactic, all that damage and rolls? didn't happen.

 

[memesis]

It seems that every time this charm comes up in discussion (This isn't the first discussion I've had to endure), its proponents continually assume that the Siderial is on some grand mission, and that furthermore that mission will be invalidated by use of Avoidance Kata.

I'll tell you why that is.  Because its opponents continually propose a single scenario where the Sidereal is ambushed or otherwise involved in a fight he doesn't plan to stick around for, and base their evaluation on that one scenario.


The truth is that the usefulness (and uselessness) of the Charm extend to far broader situations, and I acknowledge that.  However, the fact remains that the only time the Charm provides an overwhelming advantage is in that one ambush scenario.  You can't use it in a fight you WERE winning but are now losing - the time window has already slid past.  You can't use it in a social situation you are already in the thick of, for the same reason.  The Charm lets you make a snap judgment at the start of an encounter whether you should be around for it, and gives you an out.


This generalizes to a lot of Sidereal complaints (though not all).  People either don't see or don't care about the complications that can arise.  They propose that some Charm or set of Charms is "broken", without considering how those Charms get used in actual play.  This is the basis for my observation that you cannot easily evaluate a Charm set for "brokenness" just by reading it.


My assumption that Sidereals are frequently off on a "grand mission" is based on the common case, because that is what Sidereals usually do.  They are not Solars.  They don't have the privilege of fucking around in Nexus and raiding tombs and seducing princesses all day.  They have an obligation, they have a job, they have superiors they report to and they (and the world) suffer for their failures.  Maybe your Sidereals work differently, I dunno.

 

[Samiel]

I'm demonstrating that not only is AK overpowered, it's redundant.

Great. Hooray for you. Now, what do you replace it with in the sidereal Dodge tree? What other changes do you make?

I presume sarcasm, and therefore I see this as a totally useless post on your part. Are you honestly disagreeing with my assertion that their existing precognitive charm is appropriate for replacing AK because it'd involve a little work?

 

[Samiel]

Now... tell me, how would YOU make that charm work, given that you as PCs and STs can not read the future, can not -arrange- die rolls to fall as you wish (at least, one hopes). To -accurately- guage where your actions would lead you.

The Sidereals were never supposed to have access to effects which flawlessly or even accurately guess the future. When not co-operating on a large scale (which has its own difficulties, clearly), they get insight into the future or flashes of possible outcomes at best.


The Sidereal ability to gauge the future and plan appropriately is modelled through their excellency, and through charms like their minutes-in-advance surprise anticipator. I don't see that they need something that perfectly predicts the future and acts effectively like a plot-point opt-out, a discretionary retcon charm.


Sidereals can and should have a few more precognitive charms, but retcon charms like AK should be either removed or raised to a higher essence requirement.

 

[memesis]

I presume sarcasm, and therefore I see this as a totally useless post on your part.

Actually, "how would you fix it" was the whole point of this thread.  And very few people so far have actually answered the question.  I consider it a very appropriate question.

 

[Samiel]

I've already stated my opinion repeatedly. Replace such retcon charms with precog charms. It's cleaner, it more accurately models the Sidereal abilities, and it doesn't lead to frustration for the players or the storyteller.

 

[Haku1]

Now... tell me, how would YOU make that charm work, given that you as PCs and STs can not read the future, can not -arrange- die rolls to fall as you wish (at least, one hopes). To -accurately- guage where your actions would lead you.

The Sidereals were never supposed to have access to effects which flawlessly or even accurately guess the future. When not co-operating on a large scale (which has its own difficulties, clearly), they get insight into the future or flashes of possible outcomes at best.


The Sidereal ability to gauge the future and plan appropriately is modelled through their excellency, and through charms like their minutes-in-advance surprise anticipator. I don't see that they need something that perfectly predicts the future and acts effectively like a plot-point opt-out, a discretionary retcon charm.


Sidereals can and should have a few more precognitive charms, but retcon charms like AK should be either removed or raised to a higher essence requirement.

Even if said charm is in effect hacking reality, going "OMG! This is BAD! I need to get OUT OF HERE! I was never here! I saw how bad things were! I did something else!"


And reality says "Sure!" And patches you somewhere else doing something else?


Because that's what Sidereals do, they work with peality, they patch reality, they edit it, they maintain its overall structure to the best of their abilities.


I'm sure that having excellencies that go up to their essence is really good at modelling their "prescience" ability. And no, I'm not talking 4th excellency, THAT is telling reality "this worked", and reality going "of course!".

 

[Haku1]

I've already stated my opinion repeatedly. Replace such retcon charms with precog charms. It's cleaner, it more accurately models the Sidereal abilities, and it doesn't lead to frustration for the players or the storyteller.

And I'm saying that precog charms don't work mechanically as you think they do. The best analog for them IS the ability to retcon, and even THAT only works for -ONE- ability to my recollection.

 

[wordman]

Are you honestly disagreeing with my assertion that their existing precognitive charm is appropriate for replacing AK because it'd involve a little work?

No. I'm conceding that you believe your assertion to be true and, given that the resulting elimination of Avoidance Kata would leave a "hole" in the sidereal Dodge tree, I am genuinely curious how you would fill it. I started this thread asking for real fixes. It sounds like you think this is one of them. I'm anxious to see where it leads.

 

[Samiel]

The retcon charm, Avoidance Kata, can work even if the Sidereal blindly dives into a building without consideration or planning. How Sidereal is that?


Alternatively, the Sidereal uses the precog charm that says "If you go into that building, you may meet danger". He decides to plan further and be careful. That's a Sidereal.


The 4th Excellency works, in my mind, because the Sidereal has kneaded fate into accepting his actions and directive. It is part forethought, the Sidereal's decision to do something and his plan to do so, and part spur-of-the-moment grasping at fate's strands and pulling. It is a fate effect, it's just an easy and blunt form.


It's also not a little broken. Having all of your dice turn up successes is better than a solar could accomplish with a half-decent dicepool, and at 4m 1w, it's insanely cheap. Let's hope they change that mechanic before 2e Sidereals comes out.

 

[wordman]

Let's hope they change that mechanic before 2e Sidereals comes out.

What would you change it to?

 

[Samiel]

If I were to keep the Auspicious success at all, and frankly I don't think it's necessary, I'd limit the successes to the Sidereal's normal maximums. The charm wording allows for more, allowing one success for every dice in the pool.

 

[Flagg]

Another way to nerf Essence Auspicious, if you're of a mind to do so, is to make the TN reducing cost per die.

 

[Haku1]

So... 2e Sidereals are now suppose to be the equivilant of 1e Lunars?  :lol:

 

[Quchu]

The retcon charm, Avoidance Kata, can work even if the Sidereal blindly dives into a building without consideration or planning. How Sidereal is that?

I don't have much to contribute, but that sounds like saying that a marksman that deliberately targeted a bystander would never shoot a bystander because of his training. :/

 

[Dracogryff]

You asked me how I'd seen Duck Fate as rapable when I was speaking of playing as my 1E character with the 1E charm.

Among other things, I think wordman's point was that you may be confusing Duck Fate with Avoidance Kata.

Rather late, from all appearances, but better late than never, I suppose. Odds are, I probably am using the wrong name. Whichever one mechanically can do what I described was the one I was referring to having issue with on the character. I had it, and as I said, it's been almost 3 years since I played the guy in a one shot game. I don't even have his character sheet any more...I'm sorry if I'm misremembering charm names. Which I probably am, from the sounds of it. I didn't mean to cause further confusion.

 

[Persell]

whoa. I will now leave room for the arrogance of most posters here


[excessive whitespace deleted]


right. when I saw this thread, I thought I was going to see a variety of ways to improve the Charms in the 1e splat, from posters I respected because they could be civil.


boy was I wrong.


all this thread has been whining about the Charms and each other, mainly from Wordman and Memesis.


Wordman, you have been given ways to improve the 1e Charms, and it doesn't look like much more is forthcoming. moreover, you and Memesis are doing most of the whining you complain about.


Memesis, mind getting off your elitist pedestal and listening to us common folk for once? people have presented a very good way to improve the Charms: make them suit the ability they were written for.


both of you, try and be the civilized posters I somehow thought you actually were!

 

[wordman]

it doesn't look like much more is forthcoming.

That, I agree with.

people have presented a very good way to improve the Charms: make them suit the ability they were written for.

People have indeed said that they think charms should more obviously match abilities. Defense of Shining Joy, in particular was named as something that should be moved into the Dodge tree. That's about it for specifics, as far as I can tell.


Unfortunately, making charms "suit the ability they were written for" isn't really a description of a fix for 1E, it's just an idea for a new approach for a fix. What I'm after here is the implementation of such ideas. You seem to like the idea, Duma. What, specifically, would you move around? Or, would you just eliminate the "problem" charms and replace them with something else? If so, what?

 

[memesis]

Memesis, mind getting off your elitist pedestal and listening to us common folk for once? people have presented a very good way to improve the Charms: make them suit the ability they were written for.
both of you, try and be the civilized posters I somehow thought you actually were!

I suppose a page full of blank space ("for ego") and accusations of elitism are the way to be civilized and polite.


Frankly, I don't have the problem with Sidereal Charms that some people do.  I tried to explain the mindset behind Sidereal Charms and show the balancing factors behind one of the more controversial Charms.  I explained why Sidereal Charms do not necessarily reflect a literal application of their underlying ability.  Now you may not like that explanation, but I do.  Now tell me why I should write up Charm revisions to support an interpretation I don't agree with.


This is not about "listening to common folk".  People have some very emotional reactions to Sidereals, it has always been this way, it will always be this way, and that's just how it is.

 

[Guest]

People have some very emotional reactions to Sidereals, it has always been this way, it will always be this way, and that's just how it is.

Replace the boldface word with pretty much any noun you want (war, politics, religion) and you have the core reason that the world is such a piece of shit.


Apathy.


We can't even get the ambition to improve a game... how we gonna improve the world?

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

*snip*

You expected better? HERE!?

 

[Quchu]

Flagg, do something about Duma's idiotic post, it's annoying having to scroll forever to read something new posted in this thread because he thought he was being witty and snarky.

 

[memesis]

In my defense, I actually did post a Medicine Charm that actually heals someone in what I consider a Sidereal fashion - negotiating with the least god of a poison or disease.  If that's not good enough, and since nobody else has followed up with their proposals, allow me to submit a Charm for your consideration:


Destiny-Severing Stroke


"The first truth of swordsmanship is to cut through your enemy's weakness and destroy him.  The second is that the keen edge is in the wielder's mind.  The strong mind may cut through anything at all."


The Sidereal uses a slashing weapon, such as a sword or knife, to cut through the threads of Fate connecting two people and/or things.  He may make a Manipulation + Melee attack against one of a character's Intimacies, or against one of a character's Backgrounds.  He must make the attack while physically proximate to the source and object of the connection.  The Sidereal must exceed the target's MDV plus the relevant rating of the Intimacy or Background.  If he succeeds, he rolls his Essence (only) as damage dice and applies any "Health Levels" lost as lost dots in the rating.  Intimacies, Allies, and Followers may be regained in the usual fashion.  This Charm does not affect magical connections and cannot deattune Artifacts or Hearthstones; however, the character may lose possession or ownership of the item temporarily, and this too may be regained in the usual fashions.


Example: While fighting a Solar Circle, a Sidereal wishes to weaken the bond of trust between the Circlemates.  He steps between the Twilight and the Dawn and makes his attack, seemingly at empty air.  Rolling his Manipulation + Melee, he attacks the Twilight's Intimacy to the Dawn and rolls 8 successes - enough to exceed the Twilight's MDV of 5 plus the 2-dot Intimacy she has.  Rolling his Essence of 3, he achieves 2 health levels, completely severing the Intimacy.  While the Twilight may still work with the Dawn, she no longer feels the same closeness or level of trust she did before.


Now my questions:


1. Is this a Charm in theme with the Sidereal nature?


2. What ability does it most logically fall under?

 

[Persell]

I apologise, I lost my temper. I wasn't trying to be witty/snarky, I was simply trying to point out how annoying everyone was being. nice Charm, Memesis!


Wordman, I can frankly say I don't know yet. I don't have the 1e Sidereals book, so I wouldn't know which bits need fixing and which can be left as is. sorry, everyone; I just got annoyed.