2E Sidereal wishlist

[Haku1]

You know...


Avoidance kata does NOT negate the damage you take before you use it. So yeah, you get into combat, you're pwned... BADLY. But the time limit is still not yet up, so you use Avoidance Kata.


You foresaw the trouble you'd get and were elsewhere. But that doesn't negate the damage you took. The damage you have? It happened in some other manner that the ST choses for you.


EDIT - I'm not joking, take a look at the charm text. It does NOT state that the damage you took is negated. Nowhere at all does it say that. Only that you weren't there in THAT specific situation that resulted that damage.

 

[Flagg]

By the way' date=' if so, why not make this a form project or somesuch then? Fix the Sidereals. Move their Charms to more fitting places, adjust scope and power level, tweak things here and there, and do a complete mechanical rewrite of the Sidereals overall. I'd like to see how they become afterward even though I really like Sidereals' esoteric whatness.[/quote']
There's really no point in undertaking a lot of work to "fix" the Sidereals at this point, unless you're forcing you're forcing yourself to remain in the Dark Ages of First Edition. The new Sidereals book will be out relatively soon. If it's still counter to people's expectations, then might be a prudent time to overhaul it.

 

[Ker'ion]

You know...
Avoidance kata does NOT negate the damage you take before you use it. So yeah, you get into combat, you're pwned... BADLY. But the time limit is still not yet up, so you use Avoidance Kata.


You foresaw the trouble you'd get and were elsewhere. But that doesn't negate the damage you took. The damage you have? It happened in some other manner that the ST choses for you.


EDIT - I'm not joking, take a look at the charm text. It does NOT state that the damage you took is negated. Nowhere at all does it say that. Only that you weren't there in THAT specific situation that resulted that damage.

If you weren't there, then you may not have taken the damage, depending on the whim of trhe ST.  It doesn't say you didn't take the damage, but that should be obvious since you weren't there to take it.
And that new avatar is just WRONG!

 

[wordman]

I would buy that charm for every single solar character I made, if it existed.

Then be glad I'm not your storyteller.

You were elsewhere. He's left there, wondering what they hell he just wasted his time on.

You, however, were observing a volcano explode really close up. Surrounded by an army of hobgoblins.


... (several Avoidance Kata's later) ...


This whole time, you were watching the Wyld Hunt. Hope they like your anima banner.


... (several more Avoidance Kata's later) ...


You are in a featureless white room. You are completely safe. There are no exits.


... (several more Avoidance Kata's later) ...


You've been chilling out in Malfeas. There is some kind of wedding happening in front of you....

 

[Ker'ion]

I would buy that charm for every single solar character I made, if it existed.

Then be glad I'm not your storyteller.

You were elsewhere. He's left there, wondering what they hell he just wasted his time on.

You, however, were observing a volcano explode really close up. Surrounded by an army of hobgoblins.


... (several Avoidance Kata's later) ...


This whole time, you were watching the Wyld Hunt. Hope they like your anima banner.


... (several more Avoidance Kata's later) ...


You are in a featureless white room. You are completely safe. There are no exits.


... (several more Avoidance Kata's later) ...


You've been chilling out in Malfeas. There is some kind of wedding happening in front of you....

You do realize that these statements pretty much say that you are an asshole ST.  Even EM agrees on that.

 

[Samiel]

Although I don't like Avoidance Kata, and I think it makes as much sense as the root of minus one, I'd consider it the ST's responsibility to be fair in a game where it's permitted.


It's a dodge charm. When you use a dodge charm, it removes you from danger.


So although I hate Avoidance Kata like fire, I'd argue against using it to turf people into malfeas. That's just silly.


Also, saying a charm is balanced because the ST can be a prick and defeat their theme and purpose means nothing. The charm is still broken and stupidly so, you're just 'house ruling' it maliciously.

 

[wordman]

You do realize that these statements pretty much say that you are an asshole ST.  Even EM agrees on that.

So be it. Players using Avoidance Kata rationally wouldn't need to worry about me turning into a prick. And, for the record, if the only time they used it was to escape the scenario you mentioned, that seems perfectly rational to me. Why should the sidereal suffer just because the solar who planned a surprise for five years wasn't bright enough to know how sidereal defenses worked? They didn't get Usurped for nothing. Avoidance Kata is perfectly defeatable (especially socially), you just have to be smarter than the sidereal.

If you weren't there' date=' then you may not have taken the damage, depending on the whim of trhe ST.  It doesn't say you didn't take the damage, but that should be obvious since you weren't there to take it.[/quote']
It could be either way. Borgstrom claimed that the effects of the sidereal remained after they fled like a pussy and made themselves irrelevant to the story, so presumably the reverse is true as well.


As I've said before, it clearly isn't the best written charm in the world. I suspect that they will eliminate it in 2E, if only because it (evidently) easily confuses people who don't actually read it. I would ditch it, just so I no longer have to explain how it works. In its place, I would make a charm that allows the sidereal to dodge by essentially entangling an incoming attack onto someone else destiny, forcing them to dodge it instead. It's a clone of a lunar effect, but hey, it's better than something so elegedly "rapable".


Changing gears...


...wait... I'll leave space so Lord Ben can cram my ego somewhere...

The new Sidereals book will be out relatively soon. If it's still counter to people's expectations, then might be a prudent time to overhaul it.

I suspect people should start sharpening those pencils, since there is no evidence that it will be "improved" in their eyes, and some that suggests it will be made "worse". Not that anyone will do anything about it then, either.


When I started this thread, I asked two (and only two) questions:


1) For those that think the 1E charms were broken, do they think the 2E charms that have been published are broken as well?


Consensus answer, as far as I can tell: No comment, as we prefer to assume that all of the problems will magically be repaired when the new book comes out.


2) If you think the sidereal charm set is broken, how would you fix it in the upcoming 2E sidereal book?


Consensus answer, as far as I can tell: That's not our job. We prefer to shake our fists at the heavens until it is made right.


I (evidently) can't argue with either of those answers. Consider them answered. Thanks to memesis for offering an (as usual) lucid vision of what he would like to see. Thanks to Flagg for the concrete suggestion of real target number reducers. Thanks to Ledaal Kajiri for the concrete suggestion of changing charms such that they could be defended against. Thanks to Safim for at least offering suggested solutions for the problems he listed, and for the "that's kind of their business" comment. At least someone gets it.

 

[memesis]

Frankly it's easy for someone to look at a charm set and decide whether or not it's balanced.

If that was true, we wouldn't need playtesting.  Yet we do.  Further, this assertion is trivially refuted (unless you recant your position) by the fact that White Wolf put this stuff out the door.  If you think it's easy to notice balance, then why did all these people publish an allegedly unbalanced game?  "Power creep" is not an answer unless you assert that White Wolf INTENDS to release unbalanced material.

Simply because those people cannot then offer an alternative or specifically articulate the problem doesn't change the fact that it's broken.
When you can't articulate why the charm's broken, perhaps it's because there's no one reason? Maybe it's just stupidly broken?

Or perhaps the reason is that the person is wrong in their assessment.  You actually do need to consider that as a possibility.  If I submit an idea to someone and they say "this doesn't work" but they can't explain how, I don't consider their judgment to be worthwhile.  All they've done is make an assertion without backing it up.

The siderial spends a flat fee; surprise beater + dodge charm, and he's not there. He never was.

The difference between the Solar and the Sidereal approaches there is that the Solar can still win the fight, while the Sidereal cannot.  The Sidereal has just traded his life for the ability to win the encounter.  This is something nobody seems to acknowledge.  Perhaps for some gamers, staying alive is the priority.  Screw the plot objective, I want to live!

 

[Jukashi]

What's the saying? " If one man calls you a fool, ignore him. If two men call you a fool, begin to wonder. If three men call you a fool, go back to school." I think that's it, anyway.


Essential argument is; if someone says something but can't back it up, ignore them. But if several people say it, there is probably some sort of reason for it.

 

[memesis]

Essential argument is; if someone says something but can't back it up, ignore them. But if several people say it, there is probably some sort of reason for it.

If those several people still can't back up the assertion, then that's what we call an echo chamber.  You see this sort of thing in right-wing political circles in America all the time - an accusation is leveled without source, and other members of the establishment repeat it without doing any confirmation.


In other words, shouting loudly enough still doesn't make something fact.

 

[Haku1]

If you weren't there, then you may not have taken the damage, depending on the whim of trhe ST.  It doesn't say you didn't take the damage, but that should be obvious since you weren't there to take it.
And that new avatar is just WRONG!

I know... isn't it the most darlin' icon EVER?


Okay, what I mean is this... Joe Sidereal engages Invincible Spade Princess in combat. In the first round, he realises JUST how badly she outclasses him as she wallops all over the place with her orichalcum spade doing 4 bashing damage and parrying EVERYTHING he throws at her in his super death combo!


He gets a chance and runs for it like a little girl, activating his charm.


He had a little mishap on the ship from the Realm and is now suffering from having some crates fall on him as he disembarked and thus he isn't facing Invincible Spade Princess in combat. He STILL has those 4 bashing damage on his sheet because of events from his Avoidance Kata usage.


EDIT - some serious words on Avoidance Kata


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... idanceKata

 

[Persell]

I kinda feel ignored ^^

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Haku, I hate your avatars sometimes

 

[Haku1]

I kinda feel ignored ^^

There there...

Haku' date=' I hate your avatars sometimes [/quote']
Come now, it's Hamtaro, EVERYONE loves Hamtaro, don't they? ^_-


Besides, I'm listening to those requests made for a non 1e Lunar avatar.

 

[Jukashi]

At least it's not yaoi hamtaro... >.<

 

[Jack1]

I would like to add my voice to those of the outraged masses. (Regarding Haku's avatar)


And to pour a tall glass of STFU for the siddie haters.


That is all.

 

[Haku1]

So, one animated hamster massaging another hamster is evil and wrong?

 

[YogoIshida]

So, one animated hamster massaging another hamster is evil and wrong?

Damn I missed that avatar,  

 

[Ker'ion]

If it's a hamster on hamster internal massage put up for viewing anywhere then YES!


But, even though I think the old avatar was wrong on so moany levels, I didn't say I disliked it.  I thought it was funny and fit the site just fine.


That didn't make it any less wrong.


Actually, guiness records might want to see the video if you could get one of a normal massage being given by a hamster.

 

[Haku1]

Very well... I shall stick with the ministry of truth, minitrue.


No more hamster massage.

 

[Samiel]

The difference between the Solar and the Sidereal approaches there is that the Solar can still win the fight, while the Sidereal cannot.  The Sidereal has just traded his life for the ability to win the encounter.  This is something nobody seems to acknowledge.  Perhaps for some gamers, staying alive is the priority.  Screw the plot objective, I want to live!

It seems that every time this charm comes up in discussion (This isn't the first discussion I've had to endure), its proponents continually assume that the Siderial is on some grand mission, and that furthermore that mission will be invalidated by use of Avoidance Kata.


Why? Why argue in favour of a charm's mechanics because in one limited circumstance it really isn't all that bad?


In general, a Siderial can use Avoidance Kata to escape threats. And again I'll reiterate that because it's a dodge charm, they do honestly escape danger. Throwing them into a volcano because you don't like how they used it is in itself an argument against the charm's mechanics and balance, you just don't want to admit it.


Wordman, please keep it civil. We are not stupid because we disagree with you. Not being able to offer an alternative mechanic for a charm with such radically aberrant rules isn't an invalidation of our ability to say "It's not right".

 

[Samiel]

And to pour a tall glass of STFU for the siddie haters.

You're falsely assuming we hate Siderials because we dislike their charm mechanics.

 

[Haku1]

Personally, I think that Avoidance Kata isn't THAT powerful. Yes, you ESCAPE the encounter, but damage/side effects from that ecounter remain, just 'adjusted' by the loom of fate to compensate for your -new- location and what you're doing now.


So, yes... you could have escaped Emo-goth Abyssal who -just- used his nasty charm to cut off your arm. But the charm doesn't heal or give you back your arm, now it just fits the situation that you're in, you lost your arm for SOME reason, just that it wasn't caused by Emo-goth Abyssal.


Think this over, yes... it's a damn near perfect dodge. Yes, it's ridiciously cheap, but it does have the limitation of being usable WITHIN the first -2- combat rounds in battle for 1e, doesn't fix the damage ALREADY done to you. Yes, the odds of you taking serious damage is minimal, but it exists.


I can't say a thing about 2e as it has not shown up in the ST's Companion.


I would say that charm if ported over would stay fairly similiar and may look something like this.


Avoidance Kata


Cost : 2 motes


Type : Reflexive (Step 2)


Duration : Instant


Keywords : Combo-Basic, Creation (works only in Creation/Yu-shan)


Minimum Dodge : 3


Minimum Essence : 3


Requires : Duck Fate


This charm can be activated only within first 2 actions in a combat situation OR the first 10 minutes of a social combat situation. This charm takes the sidereal out of situation he is currently in, as he has forseen that a terrible fate awaits him if he goes down this path and as such, he has done something else. As far as anyone can remember, the sidereal wasn't there. All side effects of the situation remain as is, including wounds.


The Sidereal is no longer in that location, and may be placed in a new situation as dictated by the ST, with all side effects, such as wounds, carrying over to the new situation. The new situation will have an explaination for said side effect.

 

[wordman]

Not being able to offer an alternative mechanic for a charm with such radically aberrant rules isn't an invalidation of our ability to say "It's not right".

Which would be fine, except that this thread was created specifically asking for alternative mechanics. Instead, everyone just decided to "say 'it's not right'" without actually answering what I was asking for. Hint: I already know what you think is broken. I've heard it a million times before. What I was asking for is solutions.

 

[Samiel]

Personally, I think that Avoidance Kata isn't THAT powerful.
...


Think this over, yes... it's a damn near perfect dodge. Yes, it's ridiciously cheap, but it does have the limitation of being usable WITHIN the first -2- combat rounds in battle for 1e, doesn't fix the damage ALREADY done to you.

Avoidance Kata isn't the be-all-end-all in the same way that no charm can be. I think the insult of the charm is that it's easy for the Siderials to get, and it's far more effective than any written Solar Dodge charm.


Sure, it doesn't remove any damage you've taken. So what? No other exalt has a charm that can totally remove you from a battle with no additional negative repercussions, at least not below essence 5.


Avoidance Kata may not be universally applicable, but when you can 'get it off', it immediately removes you from danger. A Solar has to keep dodging and fleeing if he feels the need, as does an abyssal/lunar/terrestrial/Dragon King/God/everything.


At that essence rating, why should Siderials get a charm like that?


Instead, I suggested previously that they should rely on their precognition charm. They can divine whether or not their near future bears danger, and if they feel the risk is too great they can change their course and avoid it. That fulfils the thematic reason for Avoidance Kata without being retroactive and overpowered. It's already in the book, too; I'm not offering a house rule, I'm demonstrating that not only is AK overpowered, it's redundant.