2E Sidereal wishlist

[Lord Ben]

Right, Siderials aren't what I expect.  I expect "advisers, scholars, prophets and bureacrats" the way the fiction describes the Sid's goals.


One thing I'm the biggest fan of in 2E is how the various Exalts have been done up to more fit what the fiction describes them as.   Lunars can now be ferocious warriors who are hard to notice when hiding themselves instead of the wandering monster everyone noticed in any form they mechanically were in 1E.    Dragon Blooded actually have charms that back up their description of "More powerful in groups", not to mention enhanced teamwork via the core mechanic of coordinated attacks.


And I absolutely hate Siderial Martial Arts.  Loathe it.  But I always instintively hate systems where punching people has more awesome powers than hitting them with a magic sword.   Solars are the highlight of the game, the turning point around which the plot spins.  Yet I don't remember any essence 4+ in the core book in 1E, and sids had Martial arts that got to 9 or whatever.   Where is my essence 9 Grand Daikaive charms?  That's just a fault of the emphasis the developers choose though.


Whoever mentioned the excellencies is right though, that should make sids real nice.  I just want larceny charms to do larceny things, stealth to make you stealthy, etc.   But Larceny improves soak... dumb.

 

[Lord Ben]

I'm telling you that if you hate their Charm set, you are not thinking the way that works for running Sidereals.  That is not a crime, a lack of brain power, or a moral failing.  It's simply an observation on your play style.

So because if I want to make a Sidereal Combat Monster who engages opponents in fights to the death and I resent the fact that he'll also have to be a skillful dancer in order to truely be able to dodge (or simply prance) out of the way of a blow it means I don't have the right viewpoint on sidereals?  Wrong, it means they put a dodge charm in the performance tree.

 

[memesis]

Wrong' date=' it means they put a dodge charm in the performance tree.[/quote']
Okay.  Now answer this question:  Why was it done that way?


You fail if your answer is "because they are stupid" or "I hate it, who cares what the reason is", because that means you don't understand the reasoning. Which is pretty much what I've been saying.

 

[Quchu]

Random pointless statement: The whole theme of Sidereal Performance tree was "harmonic completion." I thought it made sense that a persistent dodge Charm was in that tree, because it says the Sidereal is celebrating the conflict by gladly providing artful responses to her enemies' blows.


Also, really, now that Sidereals have Excellencies, the problem of Sidereals not being able to do Ability stuff really well with that Ability is taken care of, as Flagg mentioned. Is it not?

 

[memesis]

But I always instintively hate systems where punching people has more awesome powers than hitting them with a magic sword.  

Someone else who's decided that supernatural martial arts must be "better punches and kicks".  I'm glad to see that my perceptions of the Exalted fan base are on the money.

 

[wordman]

...snipping three examples that had nothing whatsoever to do with Duck Fate...

Evidently my preemptive strike against exactly this (see link in first post of this thread) fell on deaf ears. Oh well.

Also, do you consider the 2E version better, the same, or worse?

I'm still interested in the answer to this question, though.


As for the rest, I did, in fact, use the phrase "how would you fix it" in the very first post of this thread. Most people still really haven't answered this specifically, except by saying "they shouldn't do X".

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

On the comment about:

I would question this.  Maybe in your game, Solars, Lunars and Abyssals walk the streets of Nexus and have tea with Lookshy's generals, but not in mine.  The Sidereals clearly do operate in Creation - just not as "Sidereals" - but that doesn't mean they aren't out there doing their thing.

No.

Lunars you see in Creation openly, similarlly with Solars, Abyssals and Dragonblooded.
...


Neither seems to have really been written to interact with the setting save for loosely.

What I meant with this is that A) People in Creation know that there are Lunar, Solars, Dragonblooded and after Thorns Abyssals, (or at least Death tainted freaks with significant power similar to Exalts) B) They are unaware of Sidereals, C) Sidereals are not built to be able to interact well with the rest of the splats (See Arcane Fate, not being supposed to exist, etc). Pretty much, they are not necessary to actually be used very much because NO ONE KNOWS THEY EXIST. (Yes, a small handful do either Lunars or Mnemon, or students at a single DB academy who are sworn to secrecy with a powerful spell backing it...but it's in no way common knowledge) Character types that are actually common knowledge are much more necessary than a hint of a memory or rumor...and if they are too problematic, it's none too hard to say, make the mistake modifying the Mask a little bigger...and have them accidentally have written themselves out entirelly. Now, I've not chosen to do so in my games...but it would be a completely viable option...

 

[wordman]

...yet the Chosen of Serenity in 1E were about the most powerful warriors Creation had to offer. With a handful of charms barely into their trees a Chosen of Serenity is more effective than a Dawn or Full Moon at doing their job.

What charms are you talking about?

 

[Lord Ben]

Wrong' date=' it means they put a dodge charm in the performance tree.[/quote']
Okay.  Now answer this question:  Why was it done that way?


You fail if your answer is "because they are stupid" or "I hate it, who cares what the reason is", because that means you don't understand the reasoning. Which is pretty much what I've been saying.

See, I don't actually fail.  That's the beauty of opinions.  I think they did it because they thought it would be clever and unique when in fact I find it painful and cumbersome.


If my cousin is in town for the weekend and I talk him into coming to a game with me and he wants to play a character I'd never suggest sidereals.  Explaining that dancing theives have good defense charms while people with a high dodge skill can move towns would cause him to never come to the game again.   To me, this is a flaw in the Sid Charms and something I would fix in 2E which is what you asked for.

 

[Lord Ben]

But I always instintively hate systems where punching people has more awesome powers than hitting them with a magic sword.  

Someone else who's decided that supernatural martial arts must be "better punches and kicks".  I'm glad to see that my perceptions of the Exalted fan base are on the money.

Elite much?   I'll leave room in the thread for your ego.


There, that should fit.   Supernatural MA are fine, but not my cup of tea.  In a game with giant swords I'd expect there to be awesome giant sword charms.


Various odd abilities are fine, but why not stick them under Lore or Occult instead of Supernatural martial arts?  Or even spells?  If I want my character to bend space and time I should be able to do so while wearing armor and carrying an axe.  It's just something I believe in and enjoy in a game system.  Needing to wear no armor and be really good at punching shouldn't be a prereq for some of the MA charms they have.  They'd fit fine under other skill trees as essence 7 lore charms or whatever.

 

[memesis]

In a game with giant swords I'd expect there to be awesome giant sword charms.

Then write some, instead of whining and complaining about my ego.

 

[wordman]

To me' date=' this is a flaw in the Sid Charms and something I would fix in 2E which is what you asked for.[/quote']
Actually, I asked how you would fix it, not what you wanted fixed.


So far, the only concrete answer I've seen is the intent to move a Performance charm into the Dodge tree, a couple similar adjustments, a vote for the target number reducing excellencies and one post worth of excellent thematic advice. Given the high level of whining about broken sidereal charms, it is disappointing that this seems to be the best anyone can suggest.

 

[Flagg]

Wordman: You're setting an unfair condition here.


I may not be able to cook a decent jambalaya, but I can definitely tell you if the jambalaya I'm eating tastes like shit. Similarly, people may not have specific ideas to FIX the Sidereals, but that does not necessarily mean their complaints are unfounded.

 

[wordman]

Wordman: You're setting an unfair condition here.

Perhaps I am. On the one hand, people who buy books are essentially paying customers and want to get what they want for their money (even if what they want is significantly less interesting than what they are given)...

I may not be able to cook a decent jambalaya, but I can definitely tell you if the jambalaya I'm eating tastes like shit.

...on the other hand, role-playing is not cooking. It is explicitly a pasttime built on the premise that if you don't like something, you are encouraged to change it. That everyone seems to invest such a gargantuan amount of energy bitching about something and zero energy actually solving it irritates me. It's like tasting the shit jambalaya and, instead of saying "maybe I'll go get some better jambalaya" or "hey, does anyone have a good recipe for jambalaya" or "I bet I could learn to make this jambalaya better", spending the next three years of your life screaming "THIS JAMBALAYA SUCKS MORE THAN ANY JAMBALAYA HAS EVER SUCKED IN THE HISTORY OF SUCKING" every time someone makes an oblique reference to okra or crawfish. The inactive screaming about sidereals is particularly annoying compared against the multiple, from-the-ground-up, full rewrites created to solve the "lunar problem". On that topic, much more action, by far less bitching.


I know people on this board are, for the most part, intelligent and rational, but most of the threads like this one always seem to sound like this to me:


"Waa! This wasn't what we expected or what we wanted! Waa! We don't want to think to much! Waa!"


"Uh... OK. Well, what was it that you expected and what do you want?"


"Waa! This wasn't what we expected or what we wanted! Waa! We don't want to think to much! Waa!"


"Uh... what wold be better?"


"Waa! Something else! Make it better! Waa!"


"Uh... can you tell me what that something else is?"


"Waa! Something not so confusing and esoteric! Metaphors confuse us! Waa!"


"Ok. So you want it to be less different from the other products? What would make it make more sense to you?"


"Waa! Move this one thing over there. Waa!"


"That's it? That's all that's broken?"


"Waa! This wasn't what we expected or what we wanted! Waa! We don't want to think to much! Waa!"


That is, of course, a totally unfair reaction. I know that. But I hear it in my head that way anyway. I don't know why I thought this thread would be any different.


By the way, I make a killer jambalaya.

 

[Quchu]

Shit, I want some jambalaya right now. I hate you and your stupid analogy, Flagg.


By the way, if so, why not make this a form project or somesuch then? Fix the Sidereals. Move their Charms to more fitting places, adjust scope and power level, tweak things here and there, and do a complete mechanical rewrite of the Sidereals overall. I'd like to see how they become afterward even though I really like Sidereals' esoteric whatness.

 

[Dracogryff]

...snipping three examples that had nothing whatsoever to do with Duck Fate...

Evidently my preemptive strike against exactly this (see link in first post of this thread) fell on deaf ears. Oh well.

You asked me how I'd seen Duck Fate as rapable when I was speaking of playing as my 1E character with the 1E charm. You didn't specify at that point that I shoud consider it changed to not have the conversation ducking powers it has in 1E. I gave reasons why I saw the 1E charm as rapable. You asked me, I answered, and now I'm the one who's ignoring things? I wasn't talking about a 2E charm, or what the easy fix is...I just answered your question. However, making it so it doesn't dodge conversations is the fix that would make me a lot happier with it...and I'd only mentioned it in passing, and you decided to pull it out of a paragraph and ask me about it specifically and you're now annoyed because I answered you with why I'd seen it as rapable nearly three years ago when I played the character? *sighs*

Also, do you consider the 2E version better, the same, or worse?

I'm still interested in the answer to this question, though.


As for the rest, I did, in fact, use the phrase "how would you fix it" in the very first post of this thread. Most people still really haven't answered this specifically, except by saying "they shouldn't do X".

I will reiterate my response to the question.

I didn't even bother looking at the Sid charms in the SC...I'm waiting for their book to come out to decide whether I like how they've been changed or not.

IE, I will answer your question when their splat comes out. Not sooner. I don't trust the SC to be the be all and end all of how their charms will be.


I will concede that you did ask how things would be fixed in your first post. For some reason, putting things in a separate special line where they're on their own has the opposite effect it should on me...I'm more likely to overlook it instead of more likely to notice it. I can't say why...but I've noticed it happen a few times.


And, as to how to fix the issues. Mainly...make the trees actually do things with the ability their supposed to be tied to...like having a bureaucracy charm do paperwork faster, not having a bureaucracy charm that kills people? (For the record, yes, the Sids do have a bureaucracy charm that does paperwork faster IIRC, but that's the only one that has anything to do with bureaucracy in the tree. I could be misremembering because I don't look at their charms.) Details on how to do that exactly, I don't have, I'm sorry. I don't want to make charms up...or at the very least, I don't want to have to totally rewrite an entire splat's charms. If that means I'm lazy, well, I am, then.


I also have a job that I go to most evenings, a two (almost three) year old son to take care of, and other things I want to spend my time on. If not wanting to rewrite something because I'd rather have more time to play with my son (or actually come up with a campaign to run for people) makes me a whiny bitch, so be it...I just don't have the time or inclination to figure out how to fix them myself. They also aren't a character type I'm exceedingly interested in, so it's even less of something I want to have to do. You just wanted what I saw issue with...I'm sorry I don't have the time, or enough interest in the Sidereals, to make the effort to fix them and instead all but relegate them to nonexistant or NPC only as a concept.


I also apologize for not noticing the line about suggestions for fixing them in your first post. My bad.

 

[memesis]

You asked me how I'd seen Duck Fate as rapable when I was speaking of playing as my 1E character with the 1E charm.

Among other things, I think wordman's point was that you may be confusing Duck Fate with Avoidance Kata.

 

[memesis]

Similarly, people may not have specific ideas to FIX the Sidereals, but that does not necessarily mean their complaints are unfounded.

Some peoples' inability to actually articulate the reasons for their complaints go a long way to convincing me that they are, in fact, unfounded.  If you can't even explain why you think something is wrong, past the level of "it's broken", you have not provided constructive criticism.  You have provided bitching.

 

[Persell]

Similarly, people may not have specific ideas to FIX the Sidereals, but that does not necessarily mean their complaints are unfounded.

Some peoples' inability to actually articulate the reasons for their complaints go a long way to convincing me that they are, in fact, unfounded.  If you can't even explain why you think something is wrong, past the level of "it's broken", you have not provided constructive criticism.  You have provided bitching.

On the other hand, someone who ever only faced on sidereal player character (NPCs are hardly an issue for balancing) might be a little blue eyed when claiming that the first edition charmset is not broken...

 

[Samiel]

Frankly it's easy for someone to look at a charm set and decide whether or not it's balanced. Simply because those people cannot then offer an alternative or specifically articulate the problem doesn't change the fact that it's broken.


When you can't articulate why the charm's broken, perhaps it's because there's no one reason? Maybe it's just stupidly broken?


Duck fate and Avoidance Kata were in all ways superior to other Exalt's dodge charms, because they didn't dodge one instance of an attack perfectly or even actionlong or scenelong dodge attacks. You just weren't ever there. The flavour is nice and cool, but it doesn't balance at all in comparison.


Solar gets shot, and employs a combo of a surprise-beater and a perfect dodge. He spends perhaps 5m, 1w, maybe considerably more if there's an attack flurry, just to survive the opening assault. He then must spend further essence surviving in time to flee, if he chooses to.


The siderial spends a flat fee; surprise beater + dodge charm, and he's not there. He never was.


In 2e the Siderials are already broken beyond recovery if you take Prismatic Arrangement Of Creation at face value. You can master that martial art before you hit essence 6, and among its charms are charm cancellers and a Solar Sorcery Canceller, at essence 3/4. The latter has, I think, 2 prerequisites and doesn't require a celestial martial art.


What they hell are they thinking?


Play balance is among WW's biggest criticisms, and they really don't do much to help their reputation. With Exalted, they don't need power creep to sell books. People will continue to buy their books if the power level remains reasonable, because it's the setting and the theme we're after. In theory, after buying the corebook you should have more cheese than you'll need.


So why do they keep cheesing out and releasing badly balanced books?

 

[Persell]

It's called powercreep. It sells more books than anything else ^^ But I guess you knew that and you question was rhetorical.


Regarding the sidereal problem.


Generally speaking there are several gripes with the charmset I have.


1. Yes it is meatphorical, but not consequent in that approach. Why does sail feature charms which only work for ships? If you want to ge metaphorical, by all means do so mister charmdesigner, but do it properly. If you want a loosely associated bunch of cool effects, go for it, but not half assed. That is just annoying.


How would I change it? Be consequent about being metaphorical.


2. Some stuff in there is not the sidereal schtick. Perfect Effects for example. Fate is a game of chance. Fate is not absolute, Prophecies change when you spell them out. These are all age-old and acknowledged literary themes. Miss Borgstrom knew that and nevertheless she gave the sidereals bloody perfect effects. Perfection rules chance out. I mean, you don't have to be a genius to notice that this does not fit together. Furthermore, why would the maidens of destiny give their exalted charms that are able to transform mortals into dragons? Is that the destiny of the human, yes? I don't think so. And neighbourhood relocation scheme. A charm that makes weaving fate living hell? And it serves actually no real purpose (oh and come on... towing stuff into place after someone stabilized a bit of wyld is SURELY not what the maidens thought of).


How would I change it? Stick to effects that make sense for sidereals thematically.


Solution? Just get rid of those charms.


3. Some charms are clearly missing. I demand teaching charms under Martial Arts, Soak charms under bureaucrazy and a soulstealing charm under larceny.


My solution? Just put the charms in and get a native speaker to give them a pretty name. Keep borgstrom away from any mechanics.


4. Balancing. I will not loose a lot of words about this. Some sideral charms are more powerful than solar circle spells of similar purview (Neighbourhood relocation scheme for example). If you do look at any one charm set and do not have the distinctive feeling that it is a lot less powerful than that of the solars, then you are facing a balancing problem.


Solution? Say no to powercreep.


5. Sidereal Martial Arts. Look at 4. Balancing. And for gods sake put the shaping keyword into Games of Divinity form or does anyone really think an essence 5 martial arts 5 scenelong charm with that low costs should slap the worst kind of addiction known in the game on anyone seeing the practicioner?!


On a sidenote: I agree with what Samiel said above me. Shattering solar spells at essence 4? Silly silly silly. Ok, admittedly the difficulty is eight but still... oh wait, the difficulty is only 5 when you got 10 dice in your pool and 2 when you have 20 thanks to excellencies and jade footworking.

 

[Samiel]

We should arrange a petition.

 

[wordman]

I gave reasons why I saw the 1E charm as rapable. You asked me, I answered, and now I'm the one who's ignoring things?

You gave a number of reasons why you thought Avoidance Kata was "rapable". Let's look at those:


I said the wrong thing to the guy across the negotiating table from me. He's now drawing his dagger. Dodged...


Not if you said the wrong thing after a minute into the conversation. And most introductions to such negotiations last way longer than that. If the dagger is drawn past that time, Avoidance Kata does nothing. But, even giving the benefit of the doubt, say this happened at second 59...


...the conversation continues with me now knowing what not to say.


No it doesn't, because you are not there. I hope your mission didn't require that negotiation to succeed, because you just failed. Again.


I'm sitting in a room, chatting with a random mortal when a pissed off Lunar sniffing around for a Sidereal walked in. Ducked...I conveniently left a few minutes earlier, and am now booking passage on the first ship out of here.


No, you're not. You are now doing whatever your storyteller decides you are doing. Avoidance Kata does not allow you to choose where you were instead, your storyteller does. And, as before, hope that you didn't need to be where you were to complete your mission, because if so, you just failed.


I turn a corner and find a half dozen guys about to beat me up and steal my lunch money. Avoided. I now don't turn that corner.


At last, a situation where Avoidance Kata is useful, at least if you flee in the first two turns of combat. If not, you are fucked. Again, though, where are you instead? Pray the storyteller is feeling generous. Also, I hope turning that corner wasn't the only way to get to where you want to go.


Consider the following, made up, solar charm:


Running Away Like a Little Girl Technique - 2m, Instant, Reflexive, Dodge:3 Essence: 3


When this charm is cast, you can instantly flee a battle like a pussy without fear of being followed or hurt. This effect can only be activated in the first or second turn of combat. Any damage you have taken in the scene is healed and, fortunately, those you were fighting don't remember your abject cowardice. The storyteller decides to where you flee in terror.


Is this charm "rapable" (by anyone other than the storyteller, who could use it to seriously rape characters)?


I agree that if you completely ignore what Avoidance Kata actually says and treat it as if it can be cast any time without consequence, then it would be broken. But it doesn't say that, so it isn't. I'd hoped my previous thread, which said exactly the same thing, would have explained this already.


As for the actual Duck Fate charm (i.e. the semi-perfect Dodge leading to Avoidance Kata), imagine you are a solar. Except that your Essence pools are about 20% smaller. With this smaller pool, a can cast Seven Shadow Evasion, except it now costs four additional motes to use (10 instead of 6). Also, it no longer works perfectly -- you have to roll and beat a difficulty of your attacker's Essence. I'd like to say that this is the life of sidereal dodging, but it isn't. It is worse. In addition to this, imagine that you can only use your personal pool. If you start using peripheral, you will either get stung by Fate or you will blow your cover, possibly both. Even if you are willing to do this, at 10 motes per dodge, you'll have about what? Four of them? Five? Oh yeah, one more thing: all this is for an effect that might not actually be perfect. The rules actually don't say that it is, though that is the implication.


Now, in 2E, it is perfect. In fact, the 2E version has much fewer limitations that the 1E version (no need to roll, for example). Given the shitstorm that brews around the 1E version, I expected people to be freaking out over the 2E version, which is why I asked the question about the 2E versions at the start of this thread. You know, the other of my questions that no one has actually answered.

 

[Persell]

Nobody has answered it because it is kinda moot. No one surely knows if it will be ported over into MoEP without change.


And Avoidance Kata is not the thing which upsets me really, so I ignored it. It doesn't upset me because usually player characters want to be at dangerous places, it kinda is their business.

 

[Samiel]

Running Away Like a Little Girl Technique - 2m, Instant, Reflexive, Dodge:3 Essence: 3
When this charm is cast, you can instantly flee a battle like a pussy without fear of being followed or hurt. This effect can only be activated in the first or second turn of combat. Any damage you have taken in the scene is healed and, fortunately, those you were fighting don't remember your abject cowardice. The storyteller decides to where you flee in terror.


Is this charm "rapable" (by anyone other than the storyteller, who could use it to seriously rape characters)?

I would buy that charm for every single solar character I made, if it existed.


Using Avoidance Kata for trivial things is one thing, but even if you restrict it to only things that really bother you, it's unbalanced.


Take the classic use: you're walking around in your house, making tea. A Solar who's been planning your demise for years finally makes his move, and assaults you. If he doesn't kill you outright, or you've got Duck Fate comboed with a surprise-beater (in 2e I think that's even built-in..), you disappear. You were elsewhere. He's left there, wondering what they hell he just wasted his time on. Meanwhile, you arrange a strikeforce to kill him.


Tell me that it's fair to just disappear from combat and escape to safety, for a few motes? In any normal battle, you'll likely know how fucked you are within the first turn or two. If it looks bad, you were elsewhere. You brush yourself off, form a new gameplan, and carry on. Whatever challenge you meet there, if it looks too dangerous, you can just escape from again. And again. And again.


Not serially of course, as I know you'll rebuke. But as it's a dodge charm, it's implied that you'll be delivered to relative safety, so that probably won't come up unless you're pretty stupid.


The Siderials have a surprise anticipation charm that works 10 minutes or so in advance. That isn't too bad, it fits the Siderial theme, and it should fill all requirements that Avoidance Kata was supposed to. AK just shatters challenge.