[2E] Shield and MA

[Zaramis]

I can't find a single place in either the DB book or the core book where it says that you can't use a shield in martial arts. I personally find it really stupid to do so, but I want to have some rules-proof on the fact that you can't. Shield doesnt go under weapon, so it can't be covered by the "only signature weapons and MA weapons allowed" ..


Anyone know? Or does anyone find that shield is a perfectly viable thing to use in, for example, Five Dragon Style ( that uses sword as a signature weapon )

 

[Flagg]

In the strictest mechanical sense, shields are neither armor, nor weapons, and thus should be perfectly viable for MA.


Wether or not they're stupid highly depends on the MA style. While it might be hard to imagine your average five animal style kung fu master using a buckler, think of what kind of shit Jackie Chan might be able to pull off with one.

 

[Forn Clakes]

There was a Terrestrial MA style in the Player's Guide for 1st edition that utilised the shield and a two-handed haftweapon (spears, poleaxes, etc.), and I think that it is being reproduced in Scroll of the Monk.


Not that that answers your question, mind.


~FC.

 

[Skinney]

I'm actually writing up a martial arts style that uses two shields at the same time, both as weapons and defensive tools.


Stole the idea from a D20 supplement, but made it better.

 

[memesis]

2E's Solar Resistance Charms make the assumption that "armor" includes "body armor", "shields", and possibly other things - generally anything that has a Mobility penalty value (even if it's 0).  That seems a fair definition of "armor" to me.


On the other hand, as has been pointed out, some MA styles don't follow the no-armor convention and don't make the no-shield assumption.  In the real world, there are Okinawan and Chinese forms which teach the use of the shield.  I imagine Creation has similar styles.

 

[Jakk Bey]

A shield is a big piece of wood or metal strapped to your arm, that covers the area.


It has enough surface area to be used for parrying.  See the Targe, see the buckler.  


It can be used to bash, to strike, to sweep, and to block blows.  


Used properly, a shield is a weapon--a good delivery system for blunt force trauma on the edge side, a good way to sweep and cover with the broad side.


There are several martial styles that used the shield extensively.  See the Roman use of the shield.  See the Chinese use of the shield.  See the Turks use of the shield.  See the inheritors of the Roman style, across the whole of Europe--either those who were the inheritors of Roman largesse, or the foemen thereof.  The Greeks made good use of the shield, but the Romans codified and made use of the shield an art.


If you dislike the idea of shields in martial arts practice, I suggest you discontinue the Iron Fan as well...

 

[Skinney]

preach on brother

 

[Kremlin KOA]

Butbutbutbutbut


Martial arts are all from ASIA and that is why asians are kewler than everyone else, Rome never had a martial art


okay I can't even PRETEND to be that stupid for very long

 

[memesis]

Butbutbutbutbut
Martial arts are all from ASIA and that is why asians are kewler than everyone else, Rome never had a martial art


okay I can't even PRETEND to be that stupid for very long

When Exalted says "martial arts", most of the inspirations come from Asian kung-fu and other unarmed forms, along with associated weapons training.  While Pancratium and other formal fighting styles certainly exist (and even did so in Medieval Europe, not what people think of as a haven for martial arts), and several such organized combat forms do make extensive use of a shield, it would be perverse for anyone to say that Asian wuxia was not the dominant influence over Exalted's combat flavor.

 

[Zaramis]

Jakk, I know fully well the use of shields in history, since I have studied history for quite a few years now. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to inform me about what a shield is or that a shield can be used to good effect in combat ( the examples you brought up, many of them at least, are on top of it all, used in group formation or meant to be. ) When you don't only try to inform, but do so in a condescending way, I get irritated. Call it a personality flaw, that I hate when people assume things about my knowledge or assume that I need to be educated in some subject.


My idea about it being silly was not applied to those sort of styles and neither do I count most of them as martial arts in the Exalted system.


If you look at all the martial art trees, they all include certain key words. Katas. Motions you perform to bring up certain effects. piritual enlightenment, meditation. These are hardly elements in most "european" martial arts if you wish to categorize them as such. Some could probably be categorized under martial arts even in Exalted, but you cannot say that all the martial arts that Exalted have taken it's  primary inspiration from are compatible with any sort of shield, including a target shield.


I've also had the pleasure of using quite a few shields in re-enactment, and I would find it hard to use anything but the smallest buckler if I was to perform most of the moves in Budo or many of the other martial arts, which is why I don't think they should be allowed, as a rule, in most martial arts. Some, certainly, all? no.


That extra DV makes a whole lot of difference when you can already enhance your DV to insane levels through charms, the shield plus is an extra on top of that. A rule that allows shields with martial arts would allow a target shield, which is, like I stated in my first post, rather silly to think about. ( For me. ) Therefor, I posted here to find if anyone knew a ruling on the subject. Apparently, people enjoy using shields in martial arts, so I guess I should look elsewhere.

 

[TrowaVidel]

Hmm, I suppose  could see a shield used in MA, but realisticly It probably falls under improvised weapon if you had to give it an offensive titile. you could likely combine it with some MA in a combat, maybe pull some sick stunts using the two but by the rules it would likely fall as an improvised melee weapon in combat. *shrug* but that's just my opinion...

 

[Jakk Bey]

Zaramis--Again, there are Chinese styles where shield use is quite common.  Mind you, those are smaller, and lighter, than the European models that you see in most re-enactments, as are many of the Greek models.


If you don't like assumptions about your knowledge, perhaps you should be clearer in your line of questioning.


It comes down to a little ST sense.


A Tower shield and Tiger Style aren't going to mix all that well--though in Exalted, you could certainly see it being used in an improvised way for the style to duck under an arrow storm, and the explode out with a Stunted throat ripper.  Mantis isn't going to do all that well with a full body shield either.  


A buckler is a whole different story, and considering how many variants of styles exist, I could see a PC working with a variant style that still retained elements that used small shields, and still retained the flavor in many styles--Fire Dragon Style is one of them.  Water Dragon style as well.  Not perhaps a popular or mainstreamed version, but certainly in This World of Martial Arts you can see variants of popular styles, just like China saw a profusion of styles that existed only to combat other styles, or variants to beat a particular tactic--and again this goes back to the Romans, who changed their line tactics, and drilled their people to the point of reflex to combat tactics as well.


ST sense should be the rule here.

 

[uteck]

You could just make a branch of Solar Hero Style (which uses imporvised weapons) and make some custom charms that affect the shileds.  The main strength of this style is that only Solars can add new charms to it, and I think a series of shield styles fits right in with it.


This would also allow you to use anything in a shiled-like manner also, like chairs, tables, chickens, ect.  Making a new style that allows this would make it too similar to SHS and probibly overlap quite a bit.

 

[Flagg]

I think with some thought, a character could probably make good use of a smallish shield strapped to his back, without sacrificing much mobility.

 

[uteck]

I think with some thought, a character could probably make good use of a smallish shield strapped to his back, without sacrificing much mobility.

But how would this make it different then a breastplate?  The advantage of a shield is that's it's surface area is larger then the hand and arm holding it, so that any punctures do not hit flesh.  Strapping a shield onto your back just makes you into a turtle and any punctures thru the shield go into your back, just like a succesful hit on a breastplate.


Also, historcally shields were disposable and not expected to last thru a fight, especally wooden ones.  It was cheeper and easier to make a new one then repaire a damaged one.  Putting realisim aside, if a shield on the back works better then armor, then why not modify a shield and wear it on your chest as well?

 

[Flagg]

But how would this make it different then a breastplate?

Mechanically? It adds to DV instead of soak.

 

[uteck]

But how would this make it different then a breastplate?

Mechanically? It adds to DV instead of soak.

But wearing it on your back would not count, at least I would not grant the DV in this situation.  The shield is being worn as armor in this case, not deflecting blows like it is intended to do.  


Taken to the extream, someone could strap a shiled on their back while wearing articulated plate and off-set most of the moblity penalty.  Too cheesy for my tastes.